History Headscratchers / DoctorWhoSeries4

7th Mar '16 2:40:07 PM lampshadeortriangle
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*So, when Ten regenerated into the hand, he used up a regeneration without changing his face. That makes the Doctor we see in "Journey's End" technically the ''Eleventh'' Doctor. And Eleven is the ''final'' Doctor (of that regeneration cycle). So, considering what we know about the Doctor taken from between his penultimate and final regeneration....... doesn't that make 10.5 - the bloodthirsty, genocidal one, the one he ''locked away '''with Rose''' ''- the ''Valeyard''?
15th Feb '16 1:53:15 PM QueenSaeryen
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** They mentioned that "Planet Earth is closed" in that episode, no aliens were allowed to come. There may have even been spaceships guarding the solar system so no one try and land there.
7th Jan '16 5:24:24 PM cillianflood
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[[folder:The Sontaran Stratagem/Poison Sky]]
* Shouldn't the Master have had to deal with the covert Sontaran invasion during the year that never was? Judging by the scale of it then it must have been in effect since before Last of the Time Lords and given they once INVADED GALLIFREY I doubt a lone Time Lord would have deterred them. In fact they probably would have relished fighting an active Time Lord. I'd like to imagine the Master did fight and defeat them but I have a hard time imagine he could have without The Doctor and Martha noticing.
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30th Dec '15 4:05:34 PM Discar
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15th Dec '15 8:47:22 AM Discar
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*** 10 said that it was recent, so if 5 remembers all of it until he's 10, he should remember that. Therefor, he should be on guard and should have easily believe Boe when he told him he wasn't alone. Perhaps 8 assumed the Time War would prevent it.

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*** ** 10 said that it was recent, so if 5 remembers all of it until he's 10, he should remember that. Therefor, he should be on guard and should have easily believe Boe when he told him he wasn't alone. Perhaps 8 assumed the Time War would prevent it.



*** Plausible, but it could also simply be that there aren't that many other candidates for 'Time Lords who are likely to survive the Time War' other than the Master and himself.

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*** ** Plausible, but it could also simply be that there aren't that many other candidates for 'Time Lords who are likely to survive the Time War' other than the Master and himself.



*** Specifically, Tennant had a line about the two of them being in one place "shorting out the differential" or some such.

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*** ** Specifically, Tennant had a line about the two of them being in one place "shorting out the differential" or some such.



*** Another possible explanation was offered in a short text story, also starring Iris Wildthyme in which the Eighth Doctor notes that he now has memories of his past incarnations that weren't there before. This also explains why the Doctor's age keeps fluctuating...his own timeline is constantly changing

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*** ** Another possible explanation was offered in a short text story, also starring Iris Wildthyme in which the Eighth Doctor notes that he now has memories of his past incarnations that weren't there before. This also explains why the Doctor's age keeps fluctuating...his own timeline is constantly changing



*** Actually, while the events of The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors may have been erased, Ten explicitly solves the plot of Time Crash through a time loop of Five telling him how to solve the Belgium hole. (see below)
*** Why would the events of "The Three Doctors" and "The Five Doctors" have been erased?

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*** ** Actually, while the events of The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors may have been erased, Ten explicitly solves the plot of Time Crash through a time loop of Five telling him how to solve the Belgium hole. (see below)
*** ** Why would the events of "The Three Doctors" and "The Five Doctors" have been erased?



*** Or to extend it further, perhaps even planets; if we assume 'credits' to be a planetary or galactic term of use, then exchange rates must surely vary from planet to planet.
*** Mr. Copper and the van Hoffs are almost certainly from the same planet.

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*** ** Or to extend it further, perhaps even planets; if we assume 'credits' to be a planetary or galactic term of use, then exchange rates must surely vary from planet to planet.
*** ** Mr. Copper and the van Hoffs are almost certainly from the same planet.



*** Alternately alternately alternately; the Doctor knew all along, but considering his next reaction to Mr. Cooper's windfall was to tell him not to get up to any trouble that the Doctor would have to sort out and just to have a nice quiet life, he decided to limit the possibility of Mr. Cooper getting tempted to become some kind of tropical dictator by understating the amount available to him; Mr. Cooper clearly didn't know the difference anyway, and when he revealed his actually rather humble aspirations the Doctor just decided to let it lie.

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*** ** Alternately alternately alternately; the Doctor knew all along, but considering his next reaction to Mr. Cooper's windfall was to tell him not to get up to any trouble that the Doctor would have to sort out and just to have a nice quiet life, he decided to limit the possibility of Mr. Cooper getting tempted to become some kind of tropical dictator by understating the amount available to him; Mr. Cooper clearly didn't know the difference anyway, and when he revealed his actually rather humble aspirations the Doctor just decided to let it lie.



*** The Doctor knows that ''someone'' has intentionally smashed very large rocks into the ''Titanic''. He figures that the same someone has reprogrammed the Hosts to kill everyone. He wants to find that someone, and explain to them that smashing very large rocks into space cruise liners is not a good thing to do when the Doctor's around. Thus, he leaves the Hosts on in order to gather the necessary information and find said someone.
*** As for why he doesn't ask "what is your shut-down command?", he figures that [[GenreSavvy whoever's programmed the robots has also programmed them not to respond to such a blindingly obvious question]] and decides not to waste either his question (of which he only has three) or his time in asking it just to get an answer he already expects. It might be a valid question, but that doesn't mean it probably wouldn't be stupid to ask it.
**** No, he'll just waste his first two questions to confirm that he has three questions and if he can start over again.

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*** ** The Doctor knows that ''someone'' has intentionally smashed very large rocks into the ''Titanic''. He figures that the same someone has reprogrammed the Hosts to kill everyone. He wants to find that someone, and explain to them that smashing very large rocks into space cruise liners is not a good thing to do when the Doctor's around. Thus, he leaves the Hosts on in order to gather the necessary information and find said someone.
*** ** As for why he doesn't ask "what is your shut-down command?", he figures that [[GenreSavvy whoever's programmed the robots has also programmed them not to respond to such a blindingly obvious question]] and decides not to waste either his question (of which he only has three) or his time in asking it just to get an answer he already expects. It might be a valid question, but that doesn't mean it probably wouldn't be stupid to ask it.
**** ** No, he'll just waste his first two questions to confirm that he has three questions and if he can start over again.



*** Another possibility is the fact that a lot of people who use diet pills like the thought that they're losing weight naturally, and in a healthy way. Seeing large chunks of your fat rip from your body could be seen as being no worse then literally cutting flesh from someone, just without the injury side of it, or indeed any worse then "sucking fat out with a tube", so to speak.
**** Or it could also be the fact that it's illegal to sell such a thing on Earth by the laws of the Shadow Proclamation. Considering Earth can be considered "independent" from the rest of the universe, due to Earth having no relations with other planets yet, it's possible that it's illegal to interfere with Earth and it's population in such a way. Therefore they could have been keeping a secret so that they came across as normal humans setting diet pills, and didn't get noticed as selling alien things on Earth.

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*** ** Another possibility is the fact that a lot of people who use diet pills like the thought that they're losing weight naturally, and in a healthy way. Seeing large chunks of your fat rip from your body could be seen as being no worse then literally cutting flesh from someone, just without the injury side of it, or indeed any worse then "sucking fat out with a tube", so to speak.
**** ** Or it could also be the fact that it's illegal to sell such a thing on Earth by the laws of the Shadow Proclamation. Considering Earth can be considered "independent" from the rest of the universe, due to Earth having no relations with other planets yet, it's possible that it's illegal to interfere with Earth and it's population in such a way. Therefore they could have been keeping a secret so that they came across as normal humans setting diet pills, and didn't get noticed as selling alien things on Earth.



*** Donna would have kept insisting, saying stuff like "But there ''were'' survivors of Pompeii, Doctor! You can't just leave them all. Please, just save one family! Just one!" In any case, the Doctor would've saved that family anyway...

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*** ** Donna would have kept insisting, saying stuff like "But there ''were'' survivors of Pompeii, Doctor! You can't just leave them all. Please, just save one family! Just one!" In any case, the Doctor would've saved that family anyway...



*** It's actually a DOUBLE paradox: Rose only wanted to go back and try again after the first time because she blew her chance. Having just watched herself save her father she's now got no reason to try again. When the 'past' Doctor and Rose, look at each other and then simply blink out of existence, it's pretty clear there's some seriously bad temporal mojo happening. The third paradox, Rose holding herself, is a much weaker one, because it entirely depends on the first to be a Paradox: Rose can't hold herself if she never traveled back to that day, otherwise it's well within timey wimey ball territory(although there is the hinted-at but unmentioned Blinovitch Limitation Effect, but that's not really a paradox). Interestingly, all three could be repaired with a working time machine with minimal rewrites: the first two could easily be rewritten as ontological paradoxes(which are stable in the Whoniverse per Blink). Give her a motivation to specifically go to that day (which she probably wouldn't know was special without her father dying), then, after she and the doctor watch her save her father, have her loop back around again to do the saving part. With the first paradox fixed, the third ceases to be a paradox(but still might cause Bad Things per the aforementioned Blinovitch Limitation Effect). He actually COULD have fixed it if he'd managed to get into the TARDIS!

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*** ** It's actually a DOUBLE paradox: Rose only wanted to go back and try again after the first time because she blew her chance. Having just watched herself save her father she's now got no reason to try again. When the 'past' Doctor and Rose, look at each other and then simply blink out of existence, it's pretty clear there's some seriously bad temporal mojo happening. The third paradox, Rose holding herself, is a much weaker one, because it entirely depends on the first to be a Paradox: Rose can't hold herself if she never traveled back to that day, otherwise it's well within timey wimey ball territory(although there is the hinted-at but unmentioned Blinovitch Limitation Effect, but that's not really a paradox). Interestingly, all three could be repaired with a working time machine with minimal rewrites: the first two could easily be rewritten as ontological paradoxes(which are stable in the Whoniverse per Blink). Give her a motivation to specifically go to that day (which she probably wouldn't know was special without her father dying), then, after she and the doctor watch her save her father, have her loop back around again to do the saving part. With the first paradox fixed, the third ceases to be a paradox(but still might cause Bad Things per the aforementioned Blinovitch Limitation Effect). He actually COULD have fixed it if he'd managed to get into the TARDIS!



*** The Oods still need the Ood Brain to think, so Halpen would've needed to augment the main Ood Brain with FTL-otherwise he couldn't export them.

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*** ** The Oods still need the Ood Brain to think, so Halpen would've needed to augment the main Ood Brain with FTL-otherwise he couldn't export them.



*** Because they mention (and it is important plot-wise) that they're using the New Byzantine calender?

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*** ** Because they mention (and it is important plot-wise) that they're using the New Byzantine calender?



*** Mm, then why is Jenny so visibly younger then her father?
*** [[AWizardDidIt The wonders of Time Lord DNA?]]

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*** ** Mm, then why is Jenny so visibly younger then her father?
*** ** [[AWizardDidIt The wonders of Time Lord DNA?]]



*** Perhaps. But in that case, somebody should have been surprised to see a female emerge from the machine, since it's not obvious he's not human. But they just calmly handed her a gun and let her get on with things.
*** Now that I think about it, however, I've realized that that method of cloning won't work unless you're careful to preserve the sex chromosome combinations, since pairing an X with a copy of itself won't work; your chromosomes are marked as being either from your mother or your father, and you need both types to develop. Two father or two mother chromosomes will be just as effective as two Y's. Therefore, they ''have'' to ''always'' produce males from male parents. But the Doctor still screws it up!
*** Again this could be explained by the fact that the Doctor isn't human. How do know that timelords have chromosomes that work the same way ours do?

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*** ** Perhaps. But in that case, somebody should have been surprised to see a female emerge from the machine, since it's not obvious he's not human. But they just calmly handed her a gun and let her get on with things.
*** ** Now that I think about it, however, I've realized that that method of cloning won't work unless you're careful to preserve the sex chromosome combinations, since pairing an X with a copy of itself won't work; your chromosomes are marked as being either from your mother or your father, and you need both types to develop. Two father or two mother chromosomes will be just as effective as two Y's. Therefore, they ''have'' to ''always'' produce males from male parents. But the Doctor still screws it up!
*** ** Again this could be explained by the fact that the Doctor isn't human. How do know that timelords have chromosomes that work the same way ours do?



*** Well, doesn't TV canon trump the Almanac? She was still in the first 15 hours into her regeneration cycle, so she should be able to shake the bullet off, her father did grow a new hand, and his hand grew another human being, according to that rule! Of course The Doctor was too distraught to think about -that-. What I don't understand is how could he think she'd die with just one bullet to one of her hearts. She did have two, after all. It's clear during the previous finale that The Master just died because he wanted to. Oh, well...
**** You can die from getting shot through a lung, even though you have two lungs. The bullet can cause other damage along the way, and it all adds up until you die. The Doctor figured that Jenny was dying through a similar process. And he really didn't expect Jenny to have regeneration powers after that first minute of being dead.
**** They have two hearts because they NEED two hearts. For whatever reason. It's not like she's human and has an extra, spare heart in case anything goes wrong with he first. They use both hearts.
**** Although "The Shakespeare Code" shows that a Time Lord CAN survive with one heart disabled, he just can't really function.

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*** ** Well, doesn't TV canon trump the Almanac? She was still in the first 15 hours into her regeneration cycle, so she should be able to shake the bullet off, her father did grow a new hand, and his hand grew another human being, according to that rule! Of course The Doctor was too distraught to think about -that-. What I don't understand is how could he think she'd die with just one bullet to one of her hearts. She did have two, after all. It's clear during the previous finale that The Master just died because he wanted to. Oh, well...
**** ** You can die from getting shot through a lung, even though you have two lungs. The bullet can cause other damage along the way, and it all adds up until you die. The Doctor figured that Jenny was dying through a similar process. And he really didn't expect Jenny to have regeneration powers after that first minute of being dead.
**** ** They have two hearts because they NEED two hearts. For whatever reason. It's not like she's human and has an extra, spare heart in case anything goes wrong with he first. They use both hearts.
**** ** Although "The Shakespeare Code" shows that a Time Lord CAN survive with one heart disabled, he just can't really function.



*** It's almost got to be the source because otherwise she would have looked different after regenerating. So it's basically a Wrath of Khan / Search for Spock scenario where terraforming tech = revival of a recently dead person.

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*** ** It's almost got to be the source because otherwise she would have looked different after regenerating. So it's basically a Wrath of Khan / Search for Spock scenario where terraforming tech = revival of a recently dead person.



*** I'd considered that myself at the time. It just seems rather odd that an incorrect theory had a whole two-parter episode dedicated to justifying it (generally, if Doctor's wrong, he gets proven wrong).
**** I don't think that episode was so much about whether the Doctor was right or wrong, as it was about how incredibly broken he was. Also, establishing River Song.

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*** ** I'd considered that myself at the time. It just seems rather odd that an incorrect theory had a whole two-parter episode dedicated to justifying it (generally, if Doctor's wrong, he gets proven wrong).
**** ** I don't think that episode was so much about whether the Doctor was right or wrong, as it was about how incredibly broken he was. Also, establishing River Song.



*** Hell, the mere existence of the Vashta Narada probably prevents the existence of sentient nocturnal life, with only a few exceptions.

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*** ** Hell, the mere existence of the Vashta Narada probably prevents the existence of sentient nocturnal life, with only a few exceptions.



*** It's irrational if you don't know ''why'' you're afraid of the dark, though.

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*** ** It's irrational if you don't know ''why'' you're afraid of the dark, though.



*** Perhaps, they enter a dormant state when their isn't enough food.

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*** ** Perhaps, they enter a dormant state when their isn't enough food.



*** Data ghosts, maybe? Just 'cause the Vashta Nerada got them, doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't be "saved". Look at Miss Evangelista.
*** I think you're thinking of two different forms of "saved". The library patrons that were saved were teleported back in the 51st century. Miss Evangelista, River, and the rest can't do any such thing.

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*** ** Data ghosts, maybe? Just 'cause the Vashta Nerada got them, doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't be "saved". Look at Miss Evangelista.
*** ** I think you're thinking of two different forms of "saved". The library patrons that were saved were teleported back in the 51st century. Miss Evangelista, River, and the rest can't do any such thing.



*** ?????????? That's physically impossible. The Long Game quite clearly follows directly on from "Dalek". The nearest I can think of was ''Kyoto'' before ''Bad Wolf''.
*** Well, of course. It just seems lazy; all this development of the character of River Song, the mystery with the other sonic screwdriver, the tension of the non-relationship, and we never get to see any of the backstory on-screen. I mean, the Doctor River Song knows is completely different from the Doctor we know. He keeps entries in that journal, he has an ''entirely different sonic screwdriver'', and he can open the Tardis with a click of the fingers. Admittedly that last one is easily explained as a stable time-loop; the Doctor does it because River told him he could, she knew that he could because he'd done it before... but that doesn't even begin to explain all the other little bits and pieces. Unless we accept that the Doctor is going to fly around for who knows how many ''years'', companionless, off-screen, dabbling with River Song. It just seems lazy.
***** Doctor Who has ''always'' been big on implicit backstory. It's nothing to do with laziness, it's just mystery, and fodder for the imagination. We're nearly half a century in to the show's run, and we still don't know the title character's name. One reason I dislike most of the Doctor Who EU is that it tries way too hard to fill in the mysteries for the sake of doing so. In addition, The Doctor doesn't have to drift companionless for years; the whole episode implies that River, unlike any other companion, experiences the Doctor's life in random bursts, rather than a contiguous period. She could even have adventured with him while he was with other companions. I've no doubt the EU (my disdain for it aside) will pick up on her story at some point, if the complete picture is more to your tastes.
***** Further to the chap above me's post - I actually really ''like'' the idea that the Doctor has loads of adventures off screen. One of the minor niggly issues I have with the new series is how so many episodes take place directly after the previous one, which takes a bit of the mystery out - the idea that we're only seeing a small selection of adventures (albeit the most important ones) works great.
**** Remember the line "Judging by the face, it's early days." She knows the Tenth Doctor and at least one subsequent Doctor.
***** Actually, no. "The Time of Angels" states that she knows ''all'' of the Doctor's faces, but not the order. She could mean his facial expression.
****** If we accept that they may have interacted at least once or twice off screen between that time and his next regeneration, it could be that she remembers Ten as the one that is still trying to figure out what's going on with her - it must be early days, because the only other time/times she's seen this face, he explicitly told her that he'd only seen her once or twice before.
**** Considering that two parter was written by Stephen Moffat, who will be taking over the show when the next doctor is adventuring, I would have thought it'd be picked up at some point on-screen. I wouldn't have thought he would bother having River Song be such an important character if she'd never show up again. She's clearly more than a bog standard companion, since she knows his name, so we more or less have to see her again.
**** Maybe she just took a guess? I mean, she and her crew enter in spacesuits to find a man in trench coat and blue suit, and a strange woman just standing there, when there was no way for them to be there at all. She expected the Doctor to be there to help and probably just assumed it was him. Up until she realized it was a very early version of the Doctor, she likely just assumed it was a new regeneration. Hell, considering how well she seemed to know him, it's possible that he showed her a way to recognize him even in a new (or as the case was old) regeneration.

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*** ** ?????????? That's physically impossible. The Long Game quite clearly follows directly on from "Dalek". The nearest I can think of was ''Kyoto'' before ''Bad Wolf''.
*** ** Well, of course. It just seems lazy; all this development of the character of River Song, the mystery with the other sonic screwdriver, the tension of the non-relationship, and we never get to see any of the backstory on-screen. I mean, the Doctor River Song knows is completely different from the Doctor we know. He keeps entries in that journal, he has an ''entirely different sonic screwdriver'', and he can open the Tardis with a click of the fingers. Admittedly that last one is easily explained as a stable time-loop; the Doctor does it because River told him he could, she knew that he could because he'd done it before... but that doesn't even begin to explain all the other little bits and pieces. Unless we accept that the Doctor is going to fly around for who knows how many ''years'', companionless, off-screen, dabbling with River Song. It just seems lazy.
***** ** Doctor Who has ''always'' been big on implicit backstory. It's nothing to do with laziness, it's just mystery, and fodder for the imagination. We're nearly half a century in to the show's run, and we still don't know the title character's name. One reason I dislike most of the Doctor Who EU is that it tries way too hard to fill in the mysteries for the sake of doing so. In addition, The Doctor doesn't have to drift companionless for years; the whole episode implies that River, unlike any other companion, experiences the Doctor's life in random bursts, rather than a contiguous period. She could even have adventured with him while he was with other companions. I've no doubt the EU (my disdain for it aside) will pick up on her story at some point, if the complete picture is more to your tastes.
***** ** Further to the chap above me's post - I actually really ''like'' the idea that the Doctor has loads of adventures off screen. One of the minor niggly issues I have with the new series is how so many episodes take place directly after the previous one, which takes a bit of the mystery out - the idea that we're only seeing a small selection of adventures (albeit the most important ones) works great.
**** ** Remember the line "Judging by the face, it's early days." She knows the Tenth Doctor and at least one subsequent Doctor.
***** ** Actually, no. "The Time of Angels" states that she knows ''all'' of the Doctor's faces, but not the order. She could mean his facial expression.
****** ** If we accept that they may have interacted at least once or twice off screen between that time and his next regeneration, it could be that she remembers Ten as the one that is still trying to figure out what's going on with her - it must be early days, because the only other time/times she's seen this face, he explicitly told her that he'd only seen her once or twice before.
**** ** Considering that two parter was written by Stephen Moffat, who will be taking over the show when the next doctor is adventuring, I would have thought it'd be picked up at some point on-screen. I wouldn't have thought he would bother having River Song be such an important character if she'd never show up again. She's clearly more than a bog standard companion, since she knows his name, so we more or less have to see her again.
**** ** Maybe she just took a guess? I mean, she and her crew enter in spacesuits to find a man in trench coat and blue suit, and a strange woman just standing there, when there was no way for them to be there at all. She expected the Doctor to be there to help and probably just assumed it was him. Up until she realized it was a very early version of the Doctor, she likely just assumed it was a new regeneration. Hell, considering how well she seemed to know him, it's possible that he showed her a way to recognize him even in a new (or as the case was old) regeneration.



*** That explains things a little, but it still doesn't explain why she didn't realize that the version of the Doctor she was talking to wouldn't recognize her, especially if the Doctor she met had shown him what his past selves looked like, but then again, maybe he had reasons not to mention it considering what he knew about her ultimate fate.
*** AnachronicOrder people.
*** Now that we know what River is, isn't it possible that she just recognizes the Doctor regardless of regeneration and just made the "Spotter's Guide" thing up to conceal her identity?
**** Because she's part Time Lord? But in that case wouldn't the Doctor look at her and see her Time Lord aspect even if he didn't know who she was?
**** Yeah, that is strange, I admit, but in Series 3, the Doctor recognized the Master even though he hasn't met him in that regeneration, and he also says that a Time Lord always recognizes another one. Maybe a Time Lord is only able to connect the regenerations to a single person, but does not actually see that someone has Time Lord aspect, so they need t know at least two regenerations to know someone's a Time Lord. Probably wouldn't make much sense, but otherwise, there is a plothole.
**** And that theory wouldn't work out either, since we saw a girl regenerate who was possibly River and the Doctor saw her, didn't he? But then maybe a Time Lord only recognizes a "pure" Time Lord, or I really don't know how the Doctor didn't know that River's part Time Lord.
*** A DNA scanner needed a closer inspection to tell that River was part Time Lord. On first inspection, she seemed human.
**** For all intents and purposes, she's fully human with some Time Lord tendencies.

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*** ** That explains things a little, but it still doesn't explain why she didn't realize that the version of the Doctor she was talking to wouldn't recognize her, especially if the Doctor she met had shown him what his past selves looked like, but then again, maybe he had reasons not to mention it considering what he knew about her ultimate fate.
*** ** AnachronicOrder people.
*** ** Now that we know what River is, isn't it possible that she just recognizes the Doctor regardless of regeneration and just made the "Spotter's Guide" thing up to conceal her identity?
**** ** Because she's part Time Lord? But in that case wouldn't the Doctor look at her and see her Time Lord aspect even if he didn't know who she was?
**** ** Yeah, that is strange, I admit, but in Series 3, the Doctor recognized the Master even though he hasn't met him in that regeneration, and he also says that a Time Lord always recognizes another one. Maybe a Time Lord is only able to connect the regenerations to a single person, but does not actually see that someone has Time Lord aspect, so they need t know at least two regenerations to know someone's a Time Lord. Probably wouldn't make much sense, but otherwise, there is a plothole.
**** ** And that theory wouldn't work out either, since we saw a girl regenerate who was possibly River and the Doctor saw her, didn't he? But then maybe a Time Lord only recognizes a "pure" Time Lord, or I really don't know how the Doctor didn't know that River's part Time Lord.
*** ** A DNA scanner needed a closer inspection to tell that River was part Time Lord. On first inspection, she seemed human.
**** ** For all intents and purposes, she's fully human with some Time Lord tendencies.



*** They already did the Crash of the ''Byzantium'' in ''The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone'', but they still have to do the picnic at Asgard, and her last appearance in the Doctor's timeline will be at the Singing Towers.

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*** ** They already did the Crash of the ''Byzantium'' in ''The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone'', but they still have to do the picnic at Asgard, and her last appearance in the Doctor's timeline will be at the Singing Towers.



*** There weren't 4022 people on the planet. There were 4022 were saved into TheMatrix. [[FridgeHorror If the original population was "x", and 0 survived, then that leaves x-4022 people that were eaten alive before they made it to the teleporters.]] [[InferredHolocaust The fact that we're talking about an entire planet means that X had to be significantly north of 1 billion.]]
**** "There weren't 4022 people on the planet." According to the episode, yes there were.
**** Let me dumb down what the fourth guy said. There we more than 4022 people on the planet, but there were only capable of saving those 4022.

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*** ** There weren't 4022 people on the planet. There were 4022 were saved into TheMatrix. [[FridgeHorror If the original population was "x", and 0 survived, then that leaves x-4022 people that were eaten alive before they made it to the teleporters.]] [[InferredHolocaust The fact that we're talking about an entire planet means that X had to be significantly north of 1 billion.]]
**** ** "There weren't 4022 people on the planet." According to the episode, yes there were.
**** ** Let me dumb down what the fourth guy said. There we more than 4022 people on the planet, but there were only capable of saving those 4022.



*** Part of it might be the fact that the coming of that meeting, when the Doctor had never met her before, was one of her worst fears. She didn't want it to be true, so she was grasping for anything that would provide some other explanation.
**** But she says the early days line ''before'' she starts listing off events, and she seems pretty calm and oblivious as she's doing it. It's plausible she was in denial, but she must be really good at hiding it, because she shows absolutely no sign of it until after listing off some things.

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*** ** Part of it might be the fact that the coming of that meeting, when the Doctor had never met her before, was one of her worst fears. She didn't want it to be true, so she was grasping for anything that would provide some other explanation.
**** ** But she says the early days line ''before'' she starts listing off events, and she seems pretty calm and oblivious as she's doing it. It's plausible she was in denial, but she must be really good at hiding it, because she shows absolutely no sign of it until after listing off some things.



*** I said they threat it like their weakness I donít remember if they said it outright also the Vashta Nerada have a entry on the weakened by light page.
*** Well, that entry's wrong, then. And how did the gang treat light as a weakness (as opposed to "any shadow" being a weakness to themselves)?
*** The fact that they spent a lot of time in a room that has sunlight combined with the faulty entry is what led me to that assumption but I appear to be wrong.
**** I think spending time in the lighter room was probably just so they could see if the Vashta Nerada were coming; if you're already stood in shadows, you can't tell if a shadow is moving towards you, whereas if it's light, a shadow stretching across the room is more noticeable.
*** The Doctor says that light slows them down but doesn't stop them.

to:

*** ** I said they threat it like their weakness I donít remember if they said it outright also the Vashta Nerada have a entry on the weakened by light page.
*** ** Well, that entry's wrong, then. And how did the gang treat light as a weakness (as opposed to "any shadow" being a weakness to themselves)?
*** ** The fact that they spent a lot of time in a room that has sunlight combined with the faulty entry is what led me to that assumption but I appear to be wrong.
**** ** I think spending time in the lighter room was probably just so they could see if the Vashta Nerada were coming; if you're already stood in shadows, you can't tell if a shadow is moving towards you, whereas if it's light, a shadow stretching across the room is more noticeable.
*** ** The Doctor says that light slows them down but doesn't stop them.



*** Which was even sillier - ''Titanic'' is famous ''because'' it sank. It's a nautical AllThereIsToKnowAboutTheCryingGame.
*** In fairness to the passengers of the "Voyage" ''Titanic'', they're just ordinary people from another galaxy who probably shouldn't be expected to have a particularly in-depth knowledge of a far-off planet's nautical history, just like humans probably shouldn't be expected to have a deep knowledge of any oceanic disasters that have occurred on any inhabited planets in the Andromeda galaxy. The person who named the ship almost certainly stressed the ship's speed, its luxury, its status as the largest ship in the world of its time, etc. (i.e. all the things the ''Titanic'' would probably be remembered for today if it wasn't for an unfortunate encounter with an iceberg) while conveniently leaving out the part where it sank. In any case, the point is that no one knows literally everything about everything, no matter how obvious it might seem to others; people can be misled, people can have incomplete information, and so on.
*** If ''Titanic'' hadn't sunk then it wouldn't ''be'' remembered today.

to:

*** ** Which was even sillier - ''Titanic'' is famous ''because'' it sank. It's a nautical AllThereIsToKnowAboutTheCryingGame.
*** ** In fairness to the passengers of the "Voyage" ''Titanic'', they're just ordinary people from another galaxy who probably shouldn't be expected to have a particularly in-depth knowledge of a far-off planet's nautical history, just like humans probably shouldn't be expected to have a deep knowledge of any oceanic disasters that have occurred on any inhabited planets in the Andromeda galaxy. The person who named the ship almost certainly stressed the ship's speed, its luxury, its status as the largest ship in the world of its time, etc. (i.e. all the things the ''Titanic'' would probably be remembered for today if it wasn't for an unfortunate encounter with an iceberg) while conveniently leaving out the part where it sank. In any case, the point is that no one knows literally everything about everything, no matter how obvious it might seem to others; people can be misled, people can have incomplete information, and so on.
*** ** If ''Titanic'' hadn't sunk then it wouldn't ''be'' remembered today.



*** Because IdiotPlot.
*** This is part of the ''point'', though; the episode is exploring the fact that humans can be panicky and short-sighted, the fact that they can get carried away with their prejudices and fears, which can lead them to dangerous and harmful courses of action, the fact that, yes, they can be idiots. The whole point of the episode is to show these people being pushed to breaking point by fear and stress and uncertainty and that sometimes this can lead to the worst of humanity coming to the fore rather than the best. No, they don't act particularly rationally or logically, but the point of the episode is that humans don't always act rationally or logically in bad situations. Even an IdiotPlot [[TropesAreNotBad isn't automatically a bad thing]].

to:

*** ** Because IdiotPlot.
*** ** This is part of the ''point'', though; the episode is exploring the fact that humans can be panicky and short-sighted, the fact that they can get carried away with their prejudices and fears, which can lead them to dangerous and harmful courses of action, the fact that, yes, they can be idiots. The whole point of the episode is to show these people being pushed to breaking point by fear and stress and uncertainty and that sometimes this can lead to the worst of humanity coming to the fore rather than the best. No, they don't act particularly rationally or logically, but the point of the episode is that humans don't always act rationally or logically in bad situations. Even an IdiotPlot [[TropesAreNotBad isn't automatically a bad thing]].



*** This is also why there is no mention of Prof. Lazarus in the "Turn Left" world.

to:

*** ** This is also why there is no mention of Prof. Lazarus in the "Turn Left" world.



*** No real clue about witches or rock monsters, but as for the Daleks in Manhattan, it's possible that Old-Timey Torchwood did it. It's definitely in the interests of the British Empire to stop Daleks from conquering the world.
**** On the other hand, the Daleks' plan might have been doomed from the start, given the effect that humanization had on Sec, and the way the other Dalek's reacted to that.
*** WordOfGod (in ''Magazine/DoctorWhoMagazine'') is that the Pyrovile were stopped by "UNIT time commandos", but there wasn't room to explain this in the script.
**** They wouldn't have to-Pompeii being destroyed by Mt Vesuvius is a fixed point in time
**** Setting aside WordOfGod above, the Pyroviles were motivated by the disappearance of their world, Pyrovillia, which was taken through time by the Daleks after Dalek Caan rescued Davros from the Time War using Emergency Temporal Shift. Without "Daleks in Manhattan", Dalek Caan's history is changed so Davros isn't rescued, and Pyrovillia is not stolen.

to:

*** ** No real clue about witches or rock monsters, but as for the Daleks in Manhattan, it's possible that Old-Timey Torchwood did it. It's definitely in the interests of the British Empire to stop Daleks from conquering the world.
**** ** On the other hand, the Daleks' plan might have been doomed from the start, given the effect that humanization had on Sec, and the way the other Dalek's reacted to that.
*** ** WordOfGod (in ''Magazine/DoctorWhoMagazine'') is that the Pyrovile were stopped by "UNIT time commandos", but there wasn't room to explain this in the script.
**** ** They wouldn't have to-Pompeii being destroyed by Mt Vesuvius is a fixed point in time
**** ** Setting aside WordOfGod above, the Pyroviles were motivated by the disappearance of their world, Pyrovillia, which was taken through time by the Daleks after Dalek Caan rescued Davros from the Time War using Emergency Temporal Shift. Without "Daleks in Manhattan", Dalek Caan's history is changed so Davros isn't rescued, and Pyrovillia is not stolen.



*** Did Rose know this?
*** Well, I'd guess so, considering that the Torchwood on her world would probably diverge much further considering Torchwood London is still intact.

to:

*** ** Did Rose know this?
*** ** Well, I'd guess so, considering that the Torchwood on her world would probably diverge much further considering Torchwood London is still intact.



*** Perhaps, but the scene with the tank shooting down the Racnoss ship was shown in the divergent universe, and no mention is made of Mr. Saxon - unlike in the original universe.
*** No; as the original post points out, the events of "Utopia" never took place in the "Turn Left" alternate universe; the Doctor never met Professor Yana at the end of the universe, so he never became the Master and never returned to 21st Century Britain. The Paradox Machine prevents the Toclafane from disappearing when wiping out their own ancestors; it doesn't protect the Master.

to:

*** ** Perhaps, but the scene with the tank shooting down the Racnoss ship was shown in the divergent universe, and no mention is made of Mr. Saxon - unlike in the original universe.
*** ** No; as the original post points out, the events of "Utopia" never took place in the "Turn Left" alternate universe; the Doctor never met Professor Yana at the end of the universe, so he never became the Master and never returned to 21st Century Britain. The Paradox Machine prevents the Toclafane from disappearing when wiping out their own ancestors; it doesn't protect the Master.



*** Well, it was a weird kind of alternate universe created by a bug, so maybe the laws of time weren't the exact same? In the actual timeline, the creation of Harold Saxon could have been a fixed point, while the turn left universe might not actually have those.
*** It's not so much that he doesn't have a choice what would happen in Utopia so much as that's what ''did'' happen. When something timey-wimey happens, its ramifications echo through the universe. When Martha inadvertently unleashes the Master, that echoes and the Series Three Saxon references are placed there retroactively. Sure, they weren't there before, but time travel has a tendency to change the past. When the Doctor dies, he can never do what he otherwise would have done, and so when that echoes, the Master's echo un-echoes. [[TimeyWimeyBall It's not consistent with some of the other time travel we've seen]], sure, but it never is in this show. It's implied that the time travel is inconsistent because in the Whoniverse time itself is either itself inconsistent (hence 'wibbly-wobbly') or too complex for normal humans to comprehend.

to:

*** ** Well, it was a weird kind of alternate universe created by a bug, so maybe the laws of time weren't the exact same? In the actual timeline, the creation of Harold Saxon could have been a fixed point, while the turn left universe might not actually have those.
*** ** It's not so much that he doesn't have a choice what would happen in Utopia so much as that's what ''did'' happen. When something timey-wimey happens, its ramifications echo through the universe. When Martha inadvertently unleashes the Master, that echoes and the Series Three Saxon references are placed there retroactively. Sure, they weren't there before, but time travel has a tendency to change the past. When the Doctor dies, he can never do what he otherwise would have done, and so when that echoes, the Master's echo un-echoes. [[TimeyWimeyBall It's not consistent with some of the other time travel we've seen]], sure, but it never is in this show. It's implied that the time travel is inconsistent because in the Whoniverse time itself is either itself inconsistent (hence 'wibbly-wobbly') or too complex for normal humans to comprehend.



*** Umm, London just got nuked by the Titanic and irradiated most of Southern England a few months earlier. Luke is ''dead'' so the Sontarans work with someone else.
*** Maybe he was bored one weekend and conveniently constructed a fallout shelter under Rattigan Academy?

to:

*** ** Umm, London just got nuked by the Titanic and irradiated most of Southern England a few months earlier. Luke is ''dead'' so the Sontarans work with someone else.
*** ** Maybe he was bored one weekend and conveniently constructed a fallout shelter under Rattigan Academy?



*** ATMOS had presumably been in development for a while, maybe the name was already picked by the time his successor started on it.
*** Point. Though how come Torchwood used the same method as the Doctor for defeating the Sontarans when the Doctor only thought of that because Rattigan had a terraforming device lying around at the time?

to:

*** ** ATMOS had presumably been in development for a while, maybe the name was already picked by the time his successor started on it.
*** ** Point. Though how come Torchwood used the same method as the Doctor for defeating the Sontarans when the Doctor only thought of that because Rattigan had a terraforming device lying around at the time?



*** Of course, the easiest way for history to fix itself would be for the Doctor to ''not die anyway'', but whatever.
**** Time doesn't fix itself by blatantly reversing the incident that is causing the disturbance, you know.
***** Yeah, but the original incident was Donna not meeting the Doctor, not the Doctor dying, and apparently all it would have taken to avoid that is for him to have, you know, hurried. Although we don't really know exactly what happened down there in the alternate version of events.
***** If the Doctor didn't need Donna (or someone else) to make him hurry then it wouldn't have been a big deal that Donna didn't meet him and in the special it's pretty clear he would have just kept standing there until Donna called to him. He wasn't really in a good place hours after losing Rose forever. Presumably, Lance dosed someone else who probably didn't insist on a wedding. Perhaps she died during the adventure or maybe she just ran off to save herself and trusted the Doctor would do the same.
*** Creator/RussellTDavies mentioned in Magazine/DoctorWhoMagazine that he was planning to put a line in about UNIT sending agents back in time to stop the Carrionites. He decided, however that it was "a reference too far" and said that he left "that sort of stuff up to fan-fiction".

to:

*** ** Of course, the easiest way for history to fix itself would be for the Doctor to ''not die anyway'', but whatever.
**** ** Time doesn't fix itself by blatantly reversing the incident that is causing the disturbance, you know.
***** ** Yeah, but the original incident was Donna not meeting the Doctor, not the Doctor dying, and apparently all it would have taken to avoid that is for him to have, you know, hurried. Although we don't really know exactly what happened down there in the alternate version of events.
***** ** If the Doctor didn't need Donna (or someone else) to make him hurry then it wouldn't have been a big deal that Donna didn't meet him and in the special it's pretty clear he would have just kept standing there until Donna called to him. He wasn't really in a good place hours after losing Rose forever. Presumably, Lance dosed someone else who probably didn't insist on a wedding. Perhaps she died during the adventure or maybe she just ran off to save herself and trusted the Doctor would do the same.
*** ** Creator/RussellTDavies mentioned in Magazine/DoctorWhoMagazine that he was planning to put a line in about UNIT sending agents back in time to stop the Carrionites. He decided, however that it was "a reference too far" and said that he left "that sort of stuff up to fan-fiction".



*** Except why didn't the Beetle go out of its way to prevent all the other disasters, and thus dissuade Donna from ''unmaking'' her fateful choice and ultimately killing the Beetle?
**** The Trickster, and possibly the beetle, feed off of chaos and destruction, which the pile-up of disasters created in enormous quantity. While not preventing them would increase the risk of being stopped, it could very well seem worth it on their side. They simply underestimated Donna from there.

to:

*** ** Except why didn't the Beetle go out of its way to prevent all the other disasters, and thus dissuade Donna from ''unmaking'' her fateful choice and ultimately killing the Beetle?
**** ** The Trickster, and possibly the beetle, feed off of chaos and destruction, which the pile-up of disasters created in enormous quantity. While not preventing them would increase the risk of being stopped, it could very well seem worth it on their side. They simply underestimated Donna from there.



*** Or, the Earth would just be a ball of rock that was never set alight with life by the Jagaroth spacecraft because Scaroth reunited himself.
*** Also factoring in Rose's appearance in Donna's world. The Trickster and the Time Beetle probably couldn't have foreseen her jumping dimensions to reach Donna, since without Rose showing Donna the beetle and her time travel, Unit (or whoever reworked the TARDIS) would never have known that she was the key moment. Anything else that happened after was for The Evulz.
*** Unless the disasters were linked by causal events, The Doctor could have stopped any of them before dying underneath Torchwood, Because, you know, Time Machine.

to:

*** ** Or, the Earth would just be a ball of rock that was never set alight with life by the Jagaroth spacecraft because Scaroth reunited himself.
*** ** Also factoring in Rose's appearance in Donna's world. The Trickster and the Time Beetle probably couldn't have foreseen her jumping dimensions to reach Donna, since without Rose showing Donna the beetle and her time travel, Unit (or whoever reworked the TARDIS) would never have known that she was the key moment. Anything else that happened after was for The Evulz.
*** ** Unless the disasters were linked by causal events, The Doctor could have stopped any of them before dying underneath Torchwood, Because, you know, Time Machine.



*** The Master doesn't have a paradox machine in Donna's World because he's not there. The Doctor dies before he can go to the end of the universe, so Professor Yana doesn't open the watch and doesn't come back to the present to become Prime Minister - in the scene with the tanks firing on the Rachnoss star, the line about 'Mr Saxon' has been cut.
**** Alternatively he DOES have the Paradox Machine. As such the Paradox Machine preserves The Doctor and all of last season's finale too, so nothing changed. So the Year That Never Was still happened, and STILL never was. You can't maintain one paradox and ignore the other, because the other is central to the first coming to be.
**** Aha! That makes sense! Parallel universe!
**** Yes, but the paradox machine's effects were removed completely except for a select few immediately around the machine, once it was shut down/destroyed. The paradox machine also still needed somebody to ''build'' it. I point to one of the lower items. The Daleks hadn't put their plans into motion yet when the Year that Never Was...(didn't?) happen.
**** The purpose of the Paradox Machine is to prevent the Toclafane from being wiped out when destroying their own ancestors. ''At no point'' does anyone mention the Paradox Machine having anything to do with protecting the Master. Why should it? The Master's plans don't interfere with his own resurrection. Therefore, the Machine wouldn't protect the Master from being erased from history if the Doctor never meets Professor Yana in the first place.

to:

*** ** The Master doesn't have a paradox machine in Donna's World because he's not there. The Doctor dies before he can go to the end of the universe, so Professor Yana doesn't open the watch and doesn't come back to the present to become Prime Minister - in the scene with the tanks firing on the Rachnoss star, the line about 'Mr Saxon' has been cut.
**** ** Alternatively he DOES have the Paradox Machine. As such the Paradox Machine preserves The Doctor and all of last season's finale too, so nothing changed. So the Year That Never Was still happened, and STILL never was. You can't maintain one paradox and ignore the other, because the other is central to the first coming to be.
**** ** Aha! That makes sense! Parallel universe!
**** ** Yes, but the paradox machine's effects were removed completely except for a select few immediately around the machine, once it was shut down/destroyed. The paradox machine also still needed somebody to ''build'' it. I point to one of the lower items. The Daleks hadn't put their plans into motion yet when the Year that Never Was...(didn't?) happen.
**** ** The purpose of the Paradox Machine is to prevent the Toclafane from being wiped out when destroying their own ancestors. ''At no point'' does anyone mention the Paradox Machine having anything to do with protecting the Master. Why should it? The Master's plans don't interfere with his own resurrection. Therefore, the Machine wouldn't protect the Master from being erased from history if the Doctor never meets Professor Yana in the first place.



*** A Toclafane can be beaten by baiting it into an electric barrier. If this is all it takes, how are they going to withstand a Dalek laser-gun? By comparison, Daleks have been seen to block lasers with their force-fields before, which gives them the advantage in a theoretical Daleks V. Toclafane fight.
**** The electrical barrier is a specific frequency through a freak chance. You just just kill a Toclafane with any old electric charge and hope for the best.
**** While this is true, it only disabled the Toclafane, it didn't kill it...and those lasers the Toclafane had caused some pretty hefty explosions, didn't they? It took three Daleks firing at once at maximum power to blow up a small house. Anyhow, the point is, if the Daleks had considered it at the time, they'd almost certainly have gone for caution versus bringing those potential threats to their home base...and I think that, the simple fact that the ripple effects...something the Doctor did right after the Paradox Machine was shut down..changed ''something'' that triggered the Daleks going planet-snatching. Think about this...in Donnaworld, the Doctor died fighting the Racnoss, before he met Martha..that would've meant he wasn't there to stop the Pyroviles from doing their thing in ancient Pompeii. But the fact the world still exists means that Pyrovillia must not have vanished yet. In other words, ''the Daleks hadn't stolen it from time''. The fact the Adipose event still happened is a little bit of a mystery though, I admit...but I think it can be [[Main/HandWave hand-waved]] by the fact that they needed America to be effectively crippled in order to make it a true Main/CrapsackWorld. Besides, they're so ''cute''. But anyway...my point is...the Daleks hadn't pulled the planets out of time yet, so none of the effects were felt during the Year That Never Was. It was only after the Year That Never Was....Never Was...that they started their plans. TimeTravelSucks. That has to be a trope, sometime, if it isn't already.
**** Okay, I'm going to rephrase what I just said...it's a little wandering. Basically...the fact the world still existed during the Year That Never Was, despite the Doctor not being there to stop the Pyroviles...was because Pryovillia hadn't been yanked out of time yet. In other words, the Daleks hadn't started their plans until ''after'' the Doctor had made The Year That Never Was...not happen. Or happen...or...Main/TimeTravelStillSucks.
****** I'd point again to the Trickster's involvement in this plot. He feeds on chaos, so it would be in his best interests to prevent the destruction of the Earth at the time of Pompeii's fall so that more chaotic events can potentially occur. He may also be affected by linear time - events that occurred after Pompeii that he fed on would no longer have occurred had Pompeii survived (and the Earth destroyed in its place). He gets weaker if he does not consume chaos, so if the Doctor hadn't [[spoiler:destroyed Pompeii]], the Trickster may have found that a sequence of events that allowed him to become powerful enough to steal Sarah-Jane did not happen, thus causing a paradox.
***** I hadn't thought of that part with the Maximum Extermination. Point. Toclafane lasers ''do'' seem more powerful than Dalek ones, plus there's the fact that the Toclafane that Martha and Pals captured was merely subdued. And as for the stolen planets, this is one of those instances where the Doctor Who model of time travel ''doesn't make sense''. Though as for the Master's Paradox Machine in regard to "Turn Left", it should have been possible for the Master's existence to stabilize according to the show's own internal logic.

to:

*** ** A Toclafane can be beaten by baiting it into an electric barrier. If this is all it takes, how are they going to withstand a Dalek laser-gun? By comparison, Daleks have been seen to block lasers with their force-fields before, which gives them the advantage in a theoretical Daleks V. Toclafane fight.
**** ** The electrical barrier is a specific frequency through a freak chance. You just just kill a Toclafane with any old electric charge and hope for the best.
**** ** While this is true, it only disabled the Toclafane, it didn't kill it...and those lasers the Toclafane had caused some pretty hefty explosions, didn't they? It took three Daleks firing at once at maximum power to blow up a small house. Anyhow, the point is, if the Daleks had considered it at the time, they'd almost certainly have gone for caution versus bringing those potential threats to their home base...and I think that, the simple fact that the ripple effects...something the Doctor did right after the Paradox Machine was shut down..changed ''something'' that triggered the Daleks going planet-snatching. Think about this...in Donnaworld, the Doctor died fighting the Racnoss, before he met Martha..that would've meant he wasn't there to stop the Pyroviles from doing their thing in ancient Pompeii. But the fact the world still exists means that Pyrovillia must not have vanished yet. In other words, ''the Daleks hadn't stolen it from time''. The fact the Adipose event still happened is a little bit of a mystery though, I admit...but I think it can be [[Main/HandWave hand-waved]] by the fact that they needed America to be effectively crippled in order to make it a true Main/CrapsackWorld. Besides, they're so ''cute''. But anyway...my point is...the Daleks hadn't pulled the planets out of time yet, so none of the effects were felt during the Year That Never Was. It was only after the Year That Never Was....Never Was...that they started their plans. TimeTravelSucks. That has to be a trope, sometime, if it isn't already.
**** ** Okay, I'm going to rephrase what I just said...it's a little wandering. Basically...the fact the world still existed during the Year That Never Was, despite the Doctor not being there to stop the Pyroviles...was because Pryovillia hadn't been yanked out of time yet. In other words, the Daleks hadn't started their plans until ''after'' the Doctor had made The Year That Never Was...not happen. Or happen...or...Main/TimeTravelStillSucks.
****** ** I'd point again to the Trickster's involvement in this plot. He feeds on chaos, so it would be in his best interests to prevent the destruction of the Earth at the time of Pompeii's fall so that more chaotic events can potentially occur. He may also be affected by linear time - events that occurred after Pompeii that he fed on would no longer have occurred had Pompeii survived (and the Earth destroyed in its place). He gets weaker if he does not consume chaos, so if the Doctor hadn't [[spoiler:destroyed Pompeii]], the Trickster may have found that a sequence of events that allowed him to become powerful enough to steal Sarah-Jane did not happen, thus causing a paradox.
***** ** I hadn't thought of that part with the Maximum Extermination. Point. Toclafane lasers ''do'' seem more powerful than Dalek ones, plus there's the fact that the Toclafane that Martha and Pals captured was merely subdued. And as for the stolen planets, this is one of those instances where the Doctor Who model of time travel ''doesn't make sense''. Though as for the Master's Paradox Machine in regard to "Turn Left", it should have been possible for the Master's existence to stabilize according to the show's own internal logic.



*** What work, though? Donna pointed out that there were no jobs to be had. Even if there were only really crappy jobs available, it still seems like they'd offer them to the British first before forcing the non-citizens to do them.
*** I assume everyone is getting rations (food etc.) so they can live. If you can find a job beyond that, you can earn some money to buy luxuries beyond food. The Brits get rations automatically, without having to work for them. But the foreigners are forced into slave labor at work camps, and if they don't work they starve. So nobody wants to go to the work camps, because it just means doing more work without receiving any benefit in return.
*** Or, as someone pointed out on the Nightmarefuel page, the theme of the Cybermen is playing when the family is taken away. Could be that they are to be turned into experimental Cybermen. So there is no work to do, Wilfred (correctly) recognizes the pattern and takes a guess about what's going to happen, he just doesn't have all the information.

to:

*** ** What work, though? Donna pointed out that there were no jobs to be had. Even if there were only really crappy jobs available, it still seems like they'd offer them to the British first before forcing the non-citizens to do them.
*** ** I assume everyone is getting rations (food etc.) so they can live. If you can find a job beyond that, you can earn some money to buy luxuries beyond food. The Brits get rations automatically, without having to work for them. But the foreigners are forced into slave labor at work camps, and if they don't work they starve. So nobody wants to go to the work camps, because it just means doing more work without receiving any benefit in return.
*** ** Or, as someone pointed out on the Nightmarefuel page, the theme of the Cybermen is playing when the family is taken away. Could be that they are to be turned into experimental Cybermen. So there is no work to do, Wilfred (correctly) recognizes the pattern and takes a guess about what's going to happen, he just doesn't have all the information.



*** I dunno, wasn't the drive powering down ''part of'' what would have destroyed Earth in "Voyage"?

to:

*** ** I dunno, wasn't the drive powering down ''part of'' what would have destroyed Earth in "Voyage"?



*** Don't muddle the reality bomb with the cracks in series 5. The reality bomb stops the electrical field of matter. Nothing was said about erasing events from time.
**** The reality bomb is being detonated in the Medusa Cascade, which has a space/time rift. Davros says "And the wavelength will continue, breaking through the rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of creation. *This* is my ultimate victory, Doctor! The destruction of reality itself!" If it's breaking through a space/time rift, then it should destroy all reality in past, present and future. And if it does that, then the stars are going out because they never existed.

to:

*** ** Don't muddle the reality bomb with the cracks in series 5. The reality bomb stops the electrical field of matter. Nothing was said about erasing events from time.
**** ** The reality bomb is being detonated in the Medusa Cascade, which has a space/time rift. Davros says "And the wavelength will continue, breaking through the rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of creation. *This* is my ultimate victory, Doctor! The destruction of reality itself!" If it's breaking through a space/time rift, then it should destroy all reality in past, present and future. And if it does that, then the stars are going out because they never existed.



*** Well Barrowman himself has implied that there may have been ''some'' truth to the whole KissOfLife thing, but even if it were true, then I'm not sure how a perfectly natural Time Lord Biological Reaction like regeneration would react when it came into contact with a Living Fixed Point in Time and, via Jack, the vortex itself... that doesn't sound like it would necessarily be beneficial.

to:

*** ** Well Barrowman himself has implied that there may have been ''some'' truth to the whole KissOfLife thing, but even if it were true, then I'm not sure how a perfectly natural Time Lord Biological Reaction like regeneration would react when it came into contact with a Living Fixed Point in Time and, via Jack, the vortex itself... that doesn't sound like it would necessarily be beneficial.



*** Ah, yes, but there exists somewhere a universe where the Daleks exist and the bomb did go off. However, Davros and the Daleks from THIS universe would be screwed if it did go off. Come to think of it, isn't it possible that there are multiple universes where these bombs go off?
**** Just because you can ''imagine'' a universe where X is true does not mean there is is actually a universe where X is true. Otherwise, yes, there would be plenty of universes where reality bombs successfully detonate. We have to assume that there is limited variety among universes, so that some things simply don't happen in any universe whatsoever. And one of the things that ends up not happening at all is the successful detonation of a reality bomb.

to:

*** ** Ah, yes, but there exists somewhere a universe where the Daleks exist and the bomb did go off. However, Davros and the Daleks from THIS universe would be screwed if it did go off. Come to think of it, isn't it possible that there are multiple universes where these bombs go off?
**** ** Just because you can ''imagine'' a universe where X is true does not mean there is is actually a universe where X is true. Otherwise, yes, there would be plenty of universes where reality bombs successfully detonate. We have to assume that there is limited variety among universes, so that some things simply don't happen in any universe whatsoever. And one of the things that ends up not happening at all is the successful detonation of a reality bomb.



*** Unbelievably pedantic, but the first strike would be the Time Lords sending the Doctor back to kill the Daleks, not his refusal.
*** I think by that I meant that without any Daleks (if the Doctor went through with it), there wouldn't even ''be'' a Last Great Time War between the Time Lords and the Daleks because the Daleks' creation was stopped.

to:

*** ** Unbelievably pedantic, but the first strike would be the Time Lords sending the Doctor back to kill the Daleks, not his refusal.
*** ** I think by that I meant that without any Daleks (if the Doctor went through with it), there wouldn't even ''be'' a Last Great Time War between the Time Lords and the Daleks because the Daleks' creation was stopped.



*** In that case, the Reality Bomb would take eternity to go off. The Daleks want to wipe out non-Daleks as soon as possible-forever is not a viable substitute. Not to mention, how is a single rift able to send matter-destroying waves to every corner of existence? Especially since the multiverse is infinite, and thus has countless universes with no connection to the one the Reality Bomb inhabits
*** Well maybe the detonation wave moves at FTL speeds and continually gets faster, thus destroying the universe over a non-infinite period of time. And who says that this hypothetical detonation wave can't breach the walls between universes and thus kill the multiverse? But more to the point, it's a ''Reality Bomb'' and it [[AWizardDidIt just works]], because the writers said so.
*** Or the Medusa Cascade rift is capable of opening a portal to every other universe simultaneously.

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*** ** In that case, the Reality Bomb would take eternity to go off. The Daleks want to wipe out non-Daleks as soon as possible-forever is not a viable substitute. Not to mention, how is a single rift able to send matter-destroying waves to every corner of existence? Especially since the multiverse is infinite, and thus has countless universes with no connection to the one the Reality Bomb inhabits
*** ** Well maybe the detonation wave moves at FTL speeds and continually gets faster, thus destroying the universe over a non-infinite period of time. And who says that this hypothetical detonation wave can't breach the walls between universes and thus kill the multiverse? But more to the point, it's a ''Reality Bomb'' and it [[AWizardDidIt just works]], because the writers said so.
*** ** Or the Medusa Cascade rift is capable of opening a portal to every other universe simultaneously.



*** It's possible this was actually an elaborate BaitAndSwitch; the Doctor has seen Davros crawl out from under rocks before, so he figured he'd keep Davros in a place DeathIsCheap can't help you escape...because ''you aren't dead''. Considering the fates of the Family of Blood, he's got at least ten levels of ''wizard''.
**** I imagine the plan is like what he was planing in that one non-canon animation. He kept the Master contained in the TARDIS ([[HoYay and their voice-mail was suggestive to say the least]]) so why not Davros?

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*** ** It's possible this was actually an elaborate BaitAndSwitch; the Doctor has seen Davros crawl out from under rocks before, so he figured he'd keep Davros in a place DeathIsCheap can't help you escape...because ''you aren't dead''. Considering the fates of the Family of Blood, he's got at least ten levels of ''wizard''.
**** ** I imagine the plan is like what he was planing in that one non-canon animation. He kept the Master contained in the TARDIS ([[HoYay and their voice-mail was suggestive to say the least]]) so why not Davros?



*** Also, the offer was to parallel the Doctor's offer to the Master at the end of the third season - that the time for wandering around was over, and he needed to take responsibility for someone. Davros being arguably more the Doctor's fault than the Master, since he had the chance to finish him off back in Genesis of the Daleks and couldn't pull the metaphorical trigger.

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*** ** Also, the offer was to parallel the Doctor's offer to the Master at the end of the third season - that the time for wandering around was over, and he needed to take responsibility for someone. Davros being arguably more the Doctor's fault than the Master, since he had the chance to finish him off back in Genesis of the Daleks and couldn't pull the metaphorical trigger.



*** He did. They addressed this in the IDW comic series when he visits with Martha yet again.

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*** ** He did. They addressed this in the IDW comic series when he visits with Martha yet again.



*** Actually, he was saved from having to make that choice at the last moment.

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*** ** Actually, he was saved from having to make that choice at the last moment.



**** He ''did'' at least consider the morality of what he was doing, though. He spent a few moments wondering whether or not it was justified - it was the human character in the same scene who convinced him it was necessary to save the rest of the planet from that fate, and looking at the alternative...
**** And how many died while he "Considered the morality" of it?
*** Presumably floating around in the Void is a FateWorseThanDeath - as it's likened to hell but then, it's later remarked up by the Doctor that everything in the Void is killed by the effects of the Reality Bomb... or something.
**** Basically, going with the "excuse to get rid of him" reason here. Maybe the Tenth Doctor really thought that being with Rose would help 10.5 not turn into a ''total'' psychopath, the way that she helped Nine. I mean, if it's called an exile or whatever in the script, I guess that makes it so but it didn't honestly seem to play out that way ("You're being exiled to an alternate universe, and yeah you're stuck on the slow path but you're with that women who I KNOW you're in love with and can build a life with and her dad's a billionaire so I don't think there's gonna be a limit on what technology you can build"), frankly, I think we're reading too much into the "this is your punishment for committing genocide" thing. Ten knows what a dangerous thing 10.5 can be, because he ''was'' that dangerous thing himself, and he's really just giving him a chance to heal. (Let's not even get started on the cut scene in which he gives 10.5 a piece of TARDIS coral to grow his own... Keeping that scene in would've solved a lot of this, frankly.)
**** Except that the energy in that universe was poisonous to the TARDIS, to the point where the Doctor had had to donate some of his own life energy to save it. Are we supposed to believe that the Doctor would leave a baby TARDIS in an environment where it was guaranteed to die?
***** I don't think it would die. The Doctor said the TARDIS died because it was in a foreign universe without Time Lords to make that okay or weakened walls like in the end of Season 4. But if a new TARDIS was grown from a coral in the parallel universe then that would become its primary one and it would be just fine there but have problems if it accidentally ended up in our universe.
*** I have to agree, we're probably reading into this too much. I think that 10.5's supposed genocidal tendencies may or may not have been a factor in the decision to leave him in Pete's World, but there were certainly other reasons, as well, not the least of which being how awkward it would be to have a clone of yourself in the same dimension. It's certainly not a punishment, either! 10.5 has the opportunity to spend the rest of his life on the slow path, living a relatively normal human life with the girl he loves- something, despite whatever the shippers may fervently ship, the real Doctor can never do. It's pretty much a win-win-win-win situation; The Doctor can still travel around the universe and save planets and be awesome, the clone of the Doctor is happy, Rose is happy, and 10/Rose shippers can finally stop writing 'reunion' fics.
*** Ten was angry because the Daleks weren't in a position to be genocided-they were reduced to flailing and being pushed around. Also the Doctor had already seen two of the Cult of Skaro gain a sense of humanity along with Metaltron, so I can imagine him trying to re-engineer them to be more peaceful beings.

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**** ** He ''did'' at least consider the morality of what he was doing, though. He spent a few moments wondering whether or not it was justified - it was the human character in the same scene who convinced him it was necessary to save the rest of the planet from that fate, and looking at the alternative...
**** ** And how many died while he "Considered the morality" of it?
*** ** Presumably floating around in the Void is a FateWorseThanDeath - as it's likened to hell but then, it's later remarked up by the Doctor that everything in the Void is killed by the effects of the Reality Bomb... or something.
**** ** Basically, going with the "excuse to get rid of him" reason here. Maybe the Tenth Doctor really thought that being with Rose would help 10.5 not turn into a ''total'' psychopath, the way that she helped Nine. I mean, if it's called an exile or whatever in the script, I guess that makes it so but it didn't honestly seem to play out that way ("You're being exiled to an alternate universe, and yeah you're stuck on the slow path but you're with that women who I KNOW you're in love with and can build a life with and her dad's a billionaire so I don't think there's gonna be a limit on what technology you can build"), frankly, I think we're reading too much into the "this is your punishment for committing genocide" thing. Ten knows what a dangerous thing 10.5 can be, because he ''was'' that dangerous thing himself, and he's really just giving him a chance to heal. (Let's not even get started on the cut scene in which he gives 10.5 a piece of TARDIS coral to grow his own... Keeping that scene in would've solved a lot of this, frankly.)
**** ** Except that the energy in that universe was poisonous to the TARDIS, to the point where the Doctor had had to donate some of his own life energy to save it. Are we supposed to believe that the Doctor would leave a baby TARDIS in an environment where it was guaranteed to die?
***** ** I don't think it would die. The Doctor said the TARDIS died because it was in a foreign universe without Time Lords to make that okay or weakened walls like in the end of Season 4. But if a new TARDIS was grown from a coral in the parallel universe then that would become its primary one and it would be just fine there but have problems if it accidentally ended up in our universe.
*** ** I have to agree, we're probably reading into this too much. I think that 10.5's supposed genocidal tendencies may or may not have been a factor in the decision to leave him in Pete's World, but there were certainly other reasons, as well, not the least of which being how awkward it would be to have a clone of yourself in the same dimension. It's certainly not a punishment, either! 10.5 has the opportunity to spend the rest of his life on the slow path, living a relatively normal human life with the girl he loves- something, despite whatever the shippers may fervently ship, the real Doctor can never do. It's pretty much a win-win-win-win situation; The Doctor can still travel around the universe and save planets and be awesome, the clone of the Doctor is happy, Rose is happy, and 10/Rose shippers can finally stop writing 'reunion' fics.
*** ** Ten was angry because the Daleks weren't in a position to be genocided-they were reduced to flailing and being pushed around. Also the Doctor had already seen two of the Cult of Skaro gain a sense of humanity along with Metaltron, so I can imagine him trying to re-engineer them to be more peaceful beings.



*** Or, it's a Dalek version of EverythingIsOnline, coupled with use by a trio of [[MagicalHacker Magical Hackers]].
*** I think the whole Vault is a sort of prison cell for [[spoiler:Davros and Dalek Caan.]] If you phrase it as letting [[spoiler:Davros]] keep prisoners, that keeps him happy at no real cost to you so he doesn't try to escape or hack the computers. Or it's part of a plan to make the [[spoiler:Supreme Dalek]] head honcho without [[spoiler:Davros]] noticing.
*** In keeping withthe Daleks = Nazis symbolism, it's just that they're crazy, arrogant, and utterly convinced that since it's their "destiny" to win, nothing they do can make them lose.

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*** ** Or, it's a Dalek version of EverythingIsOnline, coupled with use by a trio of [[MagicalHacker Magical Hackers]].
*** ** I think the whole Vault is a sort of prison cell for [[spoiler:Davros and Dalek Caan.]] If you phrase it as letting [[spoiler:Davros]] keep prisoners, that keeps him happy at no real cost to you so he doesn't try to escape or hack the computers. Or it's part of a plan to make the [[spoiler:Supreme Dalek]] head honcho without [[spoiler:Davros]] noticing.
*** ** In keeping withthe Daleks = Nazis symbolism, it's just that they're crazy, arrogant, and utterly convinced that since it's their "destiny" to win, nothing they do can make them lose.



*** Yeah the [[HeroicBSOD look]] on his face when he heard them (you can just about see, though the camera focusses on Jack) suggests he knows exactly what they are. He has kind of an 'oh shit' expression going on.

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*** ** Yeah the [[HeroicBSOD look]] on his face when he heard them (you can just about see, though the camera focusses on Jack) suggests he knows exactly what they are. He has kind of an 'oh shit' expression going on.



*** And she's seen what regeneration can do to the Doctor. One thing they could ''not'' afford at the moment was having him in the same state as in "The Christmas Invasion". Granted, he didn't have his entire system poisoned with Heart-Of-The-TARDIS-stuff this time around, but I'd say it's pretty understandable if Rose didn't think of that, considering the circumstances.
**** I like to think of it as the fact that her MeadowRun got horribly skewered after setting up for a heartwarming moment.
***** Because he ''is'' dying, it's not said specifically until a later series, but when a regeneration happens it's ''"a new man who gets up and walks away"''. It feels like death, and I don't see how anyone can claim previous doctor's (who often had several very different personality traits) were exacly the same person when several of them were clearly very different. Effectively, the Doctor she knew would be dead, and Rose has seen that happen before so she knows how it works. (Whether this is a new suggestion placed there by the modern series or was always a fact doesn't matter. Just because it's ret con doesn't stop it now being canon, whether we like it or not).
*** The second doctor was punished by the Time Lords by being ''forced'' to regenerate (presumably into someone who wouldn't commit the same crimes). The idea that a new doctor is a new person was very much a part of classic Who, even if it wasn't ''explicitly'' stated.
*** Unless of course you're Creator/PaulCornell, then ''Doctor Who'' doesn't have a canon at all.
*** The idea of 'a new man walks away' doesn't work here as when the Doctor regenerated in front of Rose he said he would be the same. Rose is a selfish person, and hates the idea of the Doctor changing at all.

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*** ** And she's seen what regeneration can do to the Doctor. One thing they could ''not'' afford at the moment was having him in the same state as in "The Christmas Invasion". Granted, he didn't have his entire system poisoned with Heart-Of-The-TARDIS-stuff this time around, but I'd say it's pretty understandable if Rose didn't think of that, considering the circumstances.
**** ** I like to think of it as the fact that her MeadowRun got horribly skewered after setting up for a heartwarming moment.
***** ** Because he ''is'' dying, it's not said specifically until a later series, but when a regeneration happens it's ''"a new man who gets up and walks away"''. It feels like death, and I don't see how anyone can claim previous doctor's (who often had several very different personality traits) were exacly the same person when several of them were clearly very different. Effectively, the Doctor she knew would be dead, and Rose has seen that happen before so she knows how it works. (Whether this is a new suggestion placed there by the modern series or was always a fact doesn't matter. Just because it's ret con doesn't stop it now being canon, whether we like it or not).
*** ** The second doctor was punished by the Time Lords by being ''forced'' to regenerate (presumably into someone who wouldn't commit the same crimes). The idea that a new doctor is a new person was very much a part of classic Who, even if it wasn't ''explicitly'' stated.
*** ** Unless of course you're Creator/PaulCornell, then ''Doctor Who'' doesn't have a canon at all.
*** ** The idea of 'a new man walks away' doesn't work here as when the Doctor regenerated in front of Rose he said he would be the same. Rose is a selfish person, and hates the idea of the Doctor changing at all.



*** Even if the claim is wrong, it fits in with Davros's arrogance, and the weapon would still be one of the most horrific constructed in the entirety of fiction.
*** Alternatively, the Doctor notes, in "Age of Steel", that when the Time Lords were around, travel between universes was easy. From this, I'm willing to assume that the Time Lord civilization, the one that's been wiped out, was pan-universal, which is why there isn't an alternative Doctor in Rose's universe: the Time Lords of that universe are the same civilization as the Time Lords of the main universe, and were wiped out with them during the war. By extension, since we are to assume that the Daleks and Time Lords had similar spheres of influence, there's only one Davros in all the multiverse, and only one Dalek Empire. (In fact, though it's a different canon, the Creator/BigFinish ''Dalek Empire'' series actually ''is'' about the Daleks trying to unite with other Dalek empires from parallel universes.)
**** Assuming the Time Lords exist in other universes, or something like them, they'd immediately intervene when someone creates something like the Reality Bomb, unless of course [[CosmicEntity they're a reality bomb in themselves]], which would have everyone at war against them. For the Daleks, there was a)make a Reality Bomb in a universe where Time Lords still exist, and [[CurbStompBattle be royally owned]], b)make a Reality Bomb in a post-Time Lord universe, which I imagine that the Time Lords would've killed themselves in a war to stop that and thus make the Time Lock of the Time War, hence whoever rescues them [[spoiler:would see through time and assure this never happens.]] or c)considering how much the Time Lords have affected the universe at large, any reality where they could build a Reality Bomb without them would end up failing because it wouldn't have the laws of physics or planets needed to make it work. The Earth, for example, needed the Racnoss chased by the Time Lords to form the absolute centre, and even if it didn't(hence why our Earth doesn't have a Racnoss spaceship inside it) the Earth wouldn't have the exact qualifications needed to be a viable transmitter. It's a wonder that the Reality Bomb was even feasible, considering how many variables were needed to get right.

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*** ** Even if the claim is wrong, it fits in with Davros's arrogance, and the weapon would still be one of the most horrific constructed in the entirety of fiction.
*** ** Alternatively, the Doctor notes, in "Age of Steel", that when the Time Lords were around, travel between universes was easy. From this, I'm willing to assume that the Time Lord civilization, the one that's been wiped out, was pan-universal, which is why there isn't an alternative Doctor in Rose's universe: the Time Lords of that universe are the same civilization as the Time Lords of the main universe, and were wiped out with them during the war. By extension, since we are to assume that the Daleks and Time Lords had similar spheres of influence, there's only one Davros in all the multiverse, and only one Dalek Empire. (In fact, though it's a different canon, the Creator/BigFinish ''Dalek Empire'' series actually ''is'' about the Daleks trying to unite with other Dalek empires from parallel universes.)
**** ** Assuming the Time Lords exist in other universes, or something like them, they'd immediately intervene when someone creates something like the Reality Bomb, unless of course [[CosmicEntity they're a reality bomb in themselves]], which would have everyone at war against them. For the Daleks, there was a)make a Reality Bomb in a universe where Time Lords still exist, and [[CurbStompBattle be royally owned]], b)make a Reality Bomb in a post-Time Lord universe, which I imagine that the Time Lords would've killed themselves in a war to stop that and thus make the Time Lock of the Time War, hence whoever rescues them [[spoiler:would see through time and assure this never happens.]] or c)considering how much the Time Lords have affected the universe at large, any reality where they could build a Reality Bomb without them would end up failing because it wouldn't have the laws of physics or planets needed to make it work. The Earth, for example, needed the Racnoss chased by the Time Lords to form the absolute centre, and even if it didn't(hence why our Earth doesn't have a Racnoss spaceship inside it) the Earth wouldn't have the exact qualifications needed to be a viable transmitter. It's a wonder that the Reality Bomb was even feasible, considering how many variables were needed to get right.



*** It's also just as possible reality has been sucsessfully destroyed, but it can't be ended permanently. It'll always reform from the ashes, which [[FridgeBrilliance might go to explain]] how an infinite number of universes doesn't have one completely successful OmnicidalManiac-[[FridgeHorror for a time, they were.]]. Not to mention, the Reality Bomb may be utterly unable to annihilate the multiverse in its entirety. Its likely a multiversal fact the weapon is flawed, or at least can only hit a handful of universes.

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*** ** It's also just as possible reality has been sucsessfully destroyed, but it can't be ended permanently. It'll always reform from the ashes, which [[FridgeBrilliance might go to explain]] how an infinite number of universes doesn't have one completely successful OmnicidalManiac-[[FridgeHorror for a time, they were.]]. Not to mention, the Reality Bomb may be utterly unable to annihilate the multiverse in its entirety. Its likely a multiversal fact the weapon is flawed, or at least can only hit a handful of universes.



*** But there was no reason for those planets to have been taken earlier in the first place.
**** As I said, StableTimeLoop. History said they vanished long ago. The Daleks not knowing or caring why, went back right before this and took them. As it turns out, they were the culprits behind it.

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*** ** But there was no reason for those planets to have been taken earlier in the first place.
**** ** As I said, StableTimeLoop. History said they vanished long ago. The Daleks not knowing or caring why, went back right before this and took them. As it turns out, they were the culprits behind it.



*** As far as theory two goes, the reason they could only be taken from the past was likely because they weren't around in the present to be stolen creating a StableTimeLoop.

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*** ** As far as theory two goes, the reason they could only be taken from the past was likely because they weren't around in the present to be stolen creating a StableTimeLoop.



*** Still, it could be a legal rule, since we've seen The Master getting more and more regenerations during the Classic Series; also, it's hinted during End of Time, that those abilities were revoked during the Time War.

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*** ** Still, it could be a legal rule, since we've seen The Master getting more and more regenerations during the Classic Series; also, it's hinted during End of Time, that those abilities were revoked during the Time War.



*** But Dalek Caan isn't pure Dalek. He's one of the Cult of Skaro, which were modified to have independent thinking and imagination. Presumably it would be a risk to recreate Daleks from him (never mind the fact that he was insane), as they might all have some independence. Pure Daleks are soldiers who have no independence apart from following orders and "exterminating".
**** Pure Daleks aren't always soldiers who have no independence, that's just the drones. Presumably, the Dalek higher ups(Dalek Supreme, Dalek Emperor) are allowed some more personality than the drones in order to lead the Daleks. Nothing says the Cult of Skaro weren't altered biologically, and its possible the Emperor just altered their minds. So long as the Cult of Skaro kept the ideals of a Dalek and 100% Dalek DNA, they'd probably just be considered eccentric.

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*** ** But Dalek Caan isn't pure Dalek. He's one of the Cult of Skaro, which were modified to have independent thinking and imagination. Presumably it would be a risk to recreate Daleks from him (never mind the fact that he was insane), as they might all have some independence. Pure Daleks are soldiers who have no independence apart from following orders and "exterminating".
**** ** Pure Daleks aren't always soldiers who have no independence, that's just the drones. Presumably, the Dalek higher ups(Dalek Supreme, Dalek Emperor) are allowed some more personality than the drones in order to lead the Daleks. Nothing says the Cult of Skaro weren't altered biologically, and its possible the Emperor just altered their minds. So long as the Cult of Skaro kept the ideals of a Dalek and 100% Dalek DNA, they'd probably just be considered eccentric.



*** The crying girl doesn't need to be useful. You could just rescue her and then leave her alone in that random hallway and tell her to keep quiet. And if Jackie can teleport away without attracting attention to either herself or to the people she's joining, how hard would it be to bring someone along? And none of this explains why Jack left the rest of Torchwood behind; surely they would be useful.
**** In Doomsday the yellow alternate universe teleporters are stated to "only carry one".
***** So how does Pete manage to warp in, grab Rose, and warp her out? And besides, in this episode we're not talking about warping between universes; we're talking about teleporting between two locations in the same universe.
****** Pete had ''two'' devices with him: one around his neck, and one in his hand. Apparently you don't need to push both of them, carrying them is enough to be warped. That's how the Doctor is warped when he first meets Pete: the Doctor doesn't push the device.

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*** ** The crying girl doesn't need to be useful. You could just rescue her and then leave her alone in that random hallway and tell her to keep quiet. And if Jackie can teleport away without attracting attention to either herself or to the people she's joining, how hard would it be to bring someone along? And none of this explains why Jack left the rest of Torchwood behind; surely they would be useful.
**** ** In Doomsday the yellow alternate universe teleporters are stated to "only carry one".
***** ** So how does Pete manage to warp in, grab Rose, and warp her out? And besides, in this episode we're not talking about warping between universes; we're talking about teleporting between two locations in the same universe.
****** ** Pete had ''two'' devices with him: one around his neck, and one in his hand. Apparently you don't need to push both of them, carrying them is enough to be warped. That's how the Doctor is warped when he first meets Pete: the Doctor doesn't push the device.



*** Nothing seems to imply that the Time War is multiversal. "The Doctor's Wife" seems to state that it definitely ''isn't'' given the Doctor's hope of the Time Lords' survival. I can't especially see how a lock in time and space would be perforated by devices that hop between universes. Plus, Rose's universe "runs ahead" of Earth-prime and the world in "Turn Left". I think it's implied that the stars are ''already'' going out when Rose makes the Dimension Cannon. Either way, I'm not sure what this has to do with the scene in the Crucible.

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*** ** Nothing seems to imply that the Time War is multiversal. "The Doctor's Wife" seems to state that it definitely ''isn't'' given the Doctor's hope of the Time Lords' survival. I can't especially see how a lock in time and space would be perforated by devices that hop between universes. Plus, Rose's universe "runs ahead" of Earth-prime and the world in "Turn Left". I think it's implied that the stars are ''already'' going out when Rose makes the Dimension Cannon. Either way, I'm not sure what this has to do with the scene in the Crucible.
14th Dec '15 8:12:55 PM Jgorgon
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Added DiffLines:

*** If ''Titanic'' hadn't sunk then it wouldn't ''be'' remembered today.
9th Dec '15 6:08:04 PM antone3x7
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**** No, he'll just waste his first two questions to confirm that he has three questions and if he can start over again.
30th Nov '15 9:54:56 AM FF32
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* Why would RichardDawkins be consulted on the events of the episode? He's a biologist. He'd have no more to say about aliens stealing the planet than the Pope would on whether [[WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic Applejack or Rainbow Dash]] [[MemeticMutation is best pony.]]

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* Why would RichardDawkins UsefulNotes/RichardDawkins be consulted on the events of the episode? He's a biologist. He'd have no more to say about aliens stealing the planet than the Pope would on whether [[WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic Applejack or Rainbow Dash]] [[MemeticMutation is best pony.]]
26th Nov '15 8:32:46 PM nombretomado
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** In the Series/SarahJaneAdventures episode where the Trickster erased her, it said it intervened to divert all the disasters she'd prevented in earlier episodes. The Beetle is one of its creatures, so it presumably worked the same way, preventing the Earth from being destroyed or invaded too early so that Donna would be able to make her fateful choice.

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** In the Series/SarahJaneAdventures ''Series/TheSarahJaneAdventures'' episode where the Trickster erased her, it said it intervened to divert all the disasters she'd prevented in earlier episodes. The Beetle is one of its creatures, so it presumably worked the same way, preventing the Earth from being destroyed or invaded too early so that Donna would be able to make her fateful choice.
28th Oct '15 11:04:56 AM jedipikachu9009
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to:

**** Let me dumb down what the fourth guy said. There we more than 4022 people on the planet, but there were only capable of saving those 4022.
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