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*** Ok, he was rather racist I guess.[[NarratingTheObvious Racisim is BAD]]. But even without taking into account his socio-historical context I think we are focalizing an aspect of his writing on an speciffic aspect and overlooking the big picture.
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*** Ok, he was rather racist I guess.[[NarratingTheObvious
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*** Ok, he was rather racist I guess.[[NarratingTheObvious Racisim is BAD]]. But even without taking into account his socio-historical context I think we are focalizing an aspect of his writing on an speciffic aspect and overlooking the big picture.
It's not the universe what is too huge and weird to describe (as in planets and dimension only) It's the depths of everything that can be a source of horror and creepy. The depths of Time, Space, the earth, of the sea, the human mind, the dreams, history and it's people. All those things are filled with dark unknown creepy corners, and since different races are not excluded from this treatment, it brings a lot of UnfortunateImplications. Lovecraft wrote for a speciffic public, and he wrote about the unknown; for him and for that public.
Far away countries and different cultures where unknown for the Anglo-Saxon, Protestant types he wrote for in the same way it was the deep sea and distant stars. It was easier back then to believe that THERE there could be similar "dark corners", because after all the readers would never get to see (or where extremelly unlikely to) those people and places and therefore WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief is less likely to be broken than if you say your neighbour englishman descends from reptile people.
Back in the day people couldn't just get in a chatroom with an Esquimaux to personally ask if they really descended from aliens. Since very few people at the time. Much in the same way we have scanned the deapths of the oceans to show us there are no sunken cyclopean cities, or the earth to show there is are not hollow lost worlds with prehistoric creatures, we have also taken National Geographic cameras to shred light on the fact that people living in far away corners on the earth are not primitive monsters.
Lovecraft just took advantage of yet another mystery aspect of the reality of his time, to scare people from his sociologycal context by means of things they ignored.
It's not the universe what is too huge and weird to describe (as in planets and dimension only) It's the depths of everything that can be a source of horror and creepy. The depths of Time, Space, the earth, of the sea, the human mind, the dreams, history and it's people. All those things are filled with dark unknown creepy corners, and since different races are not excluded from this treatment, it brings a lot of UnfortunateImplications. Lovecraft wrote for a speciffic public, and he wrote about the unknown; for him and for that public.
Far away countries and different cultures where unknown for the Anglo-Saxon, Protestant types he wrote for in the same way it was the deep sea and distant stars. It was easier back then to believe that THERE there could be similar "dark corners", because after all the readers would never get to see (or where extremelly unlikely to) those people and places and therefore WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief is less likely to be broken than if you say your neighbour englishman descends from reptile people.
Back in the day people couldn't just get in a chatroom with an Esquimaux to personally ask if they really descended from aliens. Since very few people at the time. Much in the same way we have scanned the deapths of the oceans to show us there are no sunken cyclopean cities, or the earth to show there is are not hollow lost worlds with prehistoric creatures, we have also taken National Geographic cameras to shred light on the fact that people living in far away corners on the earth are not primitive monsters.
Lovecraft just took advantage of yet another mystery aspect of the reality of his time, to scare people from his sociologycal context by means of things they ignored.
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*** Yes, they do tend to get at least a mild nervous breakdown quite often. The Tomb isn't really an example, though - the main character was Harry Houdini (yes, ''the'' Harry Houdini) who never reportedly experienced such condition, at least to my knowledge.
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*** Yes, they do tend to get at least a mild nervous breakdown quite often. The Tomb isn't really an example, though - the main character was Harry Houdini (yes, ''the'' Harry Houdini) who never reportedly experienced such condition, at least to my knowledge. knowledge.
**** It was ghostwritten for him purely as a joke, and the name of the story is ''Imprisoned with the Pharaohs''.
**** It was ghostwritten for him purely as a joke, and the name of the story is ''Imprisoned with the Pharaohs''.
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* Why are people horrified with the Cthulhu Mythos and the "humanity is insignificant" existential dread that is the central point of the story? I like Lovecraft's stories not because they are HighOctaneNightmareFuel, but because I find the idea that humanity is insignificant compared to the uncaring fantastical abominations out there, to be ''fascinating''.
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* Why are people horrified with the Cthulhu Mythos and the "humanity is insignificant" existential dread that is the central point of the story? I like Lovecraft's stories not because they are HighOctaneNightmareFuel, but because I find the idea that humanity is insignificant compared to the uncaring fantastical abominations out there, to be ''fascinating''. ''fascinating''.
** Because to a lot of people the universe is ''supposed'' to be [[ItsAllAboutMe All About Us]], of course. Man. God's (or evolution's, if you will) obvious crowning achievement. Top of the food chain. ''Obviously'' in a completely different class of being from, and superior to, 'mere' lower entities such as plants or animals. Inventor of the digital watch...I think I'll stop here. -- Given all that, is it really any wonder that the concepts behind the Mythos can easily bruise our tender bloated collective ego?
** Because to a lot of people the universe is ''supposed'' to be [[ItsAllAboutMe All About Us]], of course. Man. God's (or evolution's, if you will) obvious crowning achievement. Top of the food chain. ''Obviously'' in a completely different class of being from, and superior to, 'mere' lower entities such as plants or animals. Inventor of the digital watch...I think I'll stop here. -- Given all that, is it really any wonder that the concepts behind the Mythos can easily bruise our tender bloated collective ego?
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The point is that I don\'t get horrified with nihilism
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* Why are people horrified with the Cthulhu Mythos and the "humanity is insignificant" existential dread that is the central point of the story? I like Lovecraft's stories not because they are HighOctaneNightmareFuel, but because I find the idea that humanity is insignificant compared to the uncaring fantastical abominations out there, to be ''fascinating''. If anything, Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth would be more realistic than the Greek pantheon or Yahweh (Lovecraft being an atheist and all, and Lovecraftian gods would evolved from totally different conditions instead of being linked to the Good versus Evil ideology of humans), and the imposition of Human Significance and Good Versus Evil would ruin the elegance and uniqueness of the mythos.
** Realistic? How is that more realistic from any logical standpoint? Anyways, the idea that an amoral Mythos would make sense, except Lovecraft himself constantly presented it as evil and terrible. Also, the fact that humans tended to be the ones that either screw up the Great Old One's plans, or attempt to help bring it about, makes little sense in a work that trys to show human lack any relevance to the cosmos.
** Realistic? How is that more realistic from any logical standpoint? Anyways, the idea that an amoral Mythos would make sense, except Lovecraft himself constantly presented it as evil and terrible. Also, the fact that humans tended to be the ones that either screw up the Great Old One's plans, or attempt to help bring it about, makes little sense in a work that trys to show human lack any relevance to the cosmos.
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* Why are people horrified with the Cthulhu Mythos and the "humanity is insignificant" existential dread that is the central point of the story? I like Lovecraft's stories not because they are HighOctaneNightmareFuel, but because I find the idea that humanity is insignificant compared to the uncaring fantastical abominations out there, to be ''fascinating''. If anything, Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth would be more realistic than the Greek pantheon or Yahweh (Lovecraft being an atheist and all, and Lovecraftian gods would evolved from totally different conditions instead of being linked to the Good versus Evil ideology of humans), and the imposition of Human Significance and Good Versus Evil would ruin the elegance and uniqueness of the mythos.
** Realistic? How is that more realistic from any logical standpoint? Anyways, the idea that an amoral Mythos would make sense, except Lovecraft himself constantly presented it as evil and terrible. Also, the fact that humans tended to be the ones that either screw up the Great Old One's plans, or attempt to help bring it about, makes little sense in a work that trys to show human lack any relevance to the cosmos.
** Realistic? How is that more realistic from any logical standpoint? Anyways, the idea that an amoral Mythos would make sense, except Lovecraft himself constantly presented it as evil and terrible. Also, the fact that humans tended to be the ones that either screw up the Great Old One's plans, or attempt to help bring it about, makes little sense in a work that trys to show human lack any relevance to the cosmos.
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**Realistic? How is that more realistic from any logical standpoint? Anyways, the idea that an amoral Mythos would make sense, except Lovecraft himself constantly presented it as evil and terrible. Also, the fact that humans tended to be the ones that either screw up the Great Old One's plans, or attempt to help bring it about, makes little sense in a work that trys to show human lack any relevance to the cosmos.
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* Why are people horrified with the Cthulhu Mythos and the "humanity is insignificant" existential dread that is the central point of the story? I like Lovecraft's stories not because they are HighOctaneNightmareFuel, but because I find the idea that humanity is insignificant compared to the uncaring fantastical abominations out there, to be ''fascinating''. If anything, Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth would be more realistic than the Greek pantheon or Yahweh (Lovecraft being an atheist and all, and Lovecraftian gods would evolved from totally different conditions instead of being linked to the Good versus Evil ideology of humans), and the imposition of Human Significance and Good Versus Evil would ruin the elegance and uniqueness of the mythos.
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** Not to complain, but the subtext behind Y'golonac in "Cold Print" itself was less that it had an active interest in human atrocity than that people with those kinds of... "secrets" were the easiest to manipulate. Its ultimate goal is not simply to do hideous things, but to be released; it simply uses the basest of human emotions to achieve this goal. And considering how utterly alien such a being ''is'', in all likelihood the only emotions that it could ''recognise'' would be of the hindbrain variety...
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*For a group of beings supposedly "beyond morality", the authors tend to to present the creatures of the Mythos as the Ultimate Evil. I wish the stories had more BlueAndOrangeMorality to it. Also, another thing that bugs me is how sserious some people take the Mythos. It was meant for entertainment, we shouldn't get hung up if the writers add a Versus conflict into the matter, or if there was a message. The point of Lovecraft's tales were to entertain, not a thesis on metaphysics.
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*** The doom that came to sarnath elaborates on their origin.
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** They're immortal ([[{{Immortality}} type II]]) fish-people who've lived in the oceans for ''at least'' millennia, if not much longer, and interact with humans only rarely, in secret, and on their own terms. They're also capable of interbreeding with humans, resulting in hybrid offspring that start out looking human enough but will usually over the years 'mature' into fully accepted Deep Ones themselves. I don't ''think'' their precise ultimate origin is ever spelled out, but ''The Shadow over Innsmouth'' at least vaguely hints that they're simply another race native to Earth, what with all life having originally come from the sea and all that...
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*** He didn't go insane per se, but the incident clearly left him physically, spiritually and emotionally broken. Same thing happens to the protagonist from simply ''reading'' the account of what transpired in R'lyeh.
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* OK, forgive me if I didn't research this enough, but what exactly ''are'' the Deep Ones? Aliens? Demons? Some prehistoric animal that survived in the depths of the ocean? Precursors?
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** It's true that Lovecraft wasn't big on continuity and many of his stories stand well enough alone without being shoehorned into one overarching 'Mythos universe' (though some are more connected than others). That said, towards the end of his work he seems to have leaned towards the point of view that the 'gods' of the Mythos were really just weird alien entities that early humanity ''mistook'' for gods or demons out of ignorance. (As to whether ScienceIsBad really is a necessary key element of 'Lovecraftian flavor'...I'd say it's debatable when the {{aesop}} of his tales more often than not seems to be that while knowledge may be bad for your peace of mind, it's ''ignorance'' that gets you killed outright, but {{your mileage may vary}}.)
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** Their power level is inconsistent, and varies DependingOnTheWriter. Lovecraft himself never cared about consistency between stories. Moreover, if a story's to have a truly Lovecraftian feel, then we should not know what the Great Old Ones are, and what powers they have. Are they gods or monsters, mortal or immortal? They're beings from another part of the universe, where the natural laws are different. Humans can't understand what they are; trying will drive you insane.
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** Because Call of Cthulhu was the first story were Lovecraft really found the style that he's now famous for (though elements of it appeared in earlier stories), and the story that made him a well-known name among science fiction readers.
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** Because Call of Cthulhu was the first story were where Lovecraft really found the style that he's now famous for (though elements of it appeared in earlier stories), and the story that made him a well-known name among science fiction readers.
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** Because Call of Cthulhu was the first story were Lovecraft really found the style that he's now famous for (though elements of it appeared in earlier stories), and the story that made him a well-known name among science fiction readers.
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**Are you complaining about core info about Call of Cthulhu, the RPG being on websites? Or some guy's boring campaign stories? I mean, Call of Cthulhu is one of the best RPGs ever made, both in terms of the system and the flavour, and (YMMV on this point of course) is greatly responsible for the continued popularity of Lovecraft's work. If you're annoyed that people have websites about the game... That's kind of Complaining About Shows You Don't Like territory. If it's people's silly fan-work or the fact that sometimes people tend to mix together stuff from Lovecraft himself, other Mythos writers and RPG material and present it as if it was the original, I can relate.
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** Cthulhu is singular; the name of an individual, as mentioned above. As for the race, I want to call them Xothians (after the star or planet they came from, IIRC), but can't place the reference right now, so take that with an appropriate dose of salt. And incidentally, we don't -- strictly speaking -- know for certain that the entity who put in an appearance in ''The Call of Cthulhu'' actually ''was'' Great Cthulhu himself. It never bothered to introduce itself or wear a convenient name tag for a certain bunch of unlucky sailors to name it by, after all...and Cthulhu is hardly the only sleeper in R'lyeh.
** Maybe it's because he's basically Psychic {{Godzilla}} with tentacles...he's got some of the same 'big scary invincible sea monster you don't really want to see wake up and go on a rampage ever' vibe going.
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** They're also sometimes called Cthulhi. Wikipedia tells us that, in a letter to James F. Morton, Lovecraft said that Cthulhu is himself the son of Nug, who is the child of Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath.
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** I think they are just called the "Star Spawn of Cthulhu". They are basically Cthulhu, except much smaller, roughly 7 feet tall.
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**** Thing is, Lovecraft wasn't a great writer. At all. He had some cracking ideas and his Mythos was an amazing concept just because of the framework that these unimaginably alien and powerful beings couldn't care less about humanity but his prose was, in many cases, absolutely dire. There's one story in particular (I want to say the Colour Out of Space but I'm not 100% on that) where a character is writing his journal when something bursts through his window. The final line of the story is something along the lines of 'oh no, htey're outside now, they're coming through the window, arrrgh.' Because obviously when being attacked by an alien monstrosity you'd be sure to make sure your death-scream was recorded.
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**** Thing is, Lovecraft wasn't a great writer. At all. He had some cracking ideas and his Mythos was an amazing concept just because of the framework that these unimaginably alien and powerful beings couldn't care less about humanity but his prose was, in many cases, absolutely dire. There's one story in particular (I want to say the Colour Out of Space but I'm not 100% on that) where a character is writing his journal when something bursts through his window. The final line of the story is something along the lines of 'oh no, htey're outside now, they're coming through the window, arrrgh.' Because obviously when being attacked by an alien monstrosity you'd be sure to make sure your death-scream was recorded.
recorded.
**** That wasn't Lovecraft. That was Lin Carter's ''The Hounds of Tindalos'', where the narrator continues to write his final words as he's being eaten alive by the titular creatures. Lovecraft's own prose doesn't have quite as egregious examples, and the few, like ''Dagon'' or ''The Haunter of the Dark'', clearly have the narrator frantically scribbling their final notes, in hopes that they manage to get their last words down before the creature breaks in, and tend to cut off at a critical point. In ''The Colour from Space'' the narrator has no personal experience of the events at all, and the person he interviews survived after only glimpsing the Colour a couple of times.
**** That wasn't Lovecraft. That was Lin Carter's ''The Hounds of Tindalos'', where the narrator continues to write his final words as he's being eaten alive by the titular creatures. Lovecraft's own prose doesn't have quite as egregious examples, and the few, like ''Dagon'' or ''The Haunter of the Dark'', clearly have the narrator frantically scribbling their final notes, in hopes that they manage to get their last words down before the creature breaks in, and tend to cut off at a critical point. In ''The Colour from Space'' the narrator has no personal experience of the events at all, and the person he interviews survived after only glimpsing the Colour a couple of times.
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*Why is Cthulhu so popular? I'm not denying that he is cool, but with all the other larger, more powerful, and much more alien and hideous cosmic horrors why is Cthulhu in particular so loved? Wasn't he only in "Call of Cthulhu" ?
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**** What you have to realise is that, to a certain extent, every man bases his concept of 'god' on his own father and Lovecraft's father spent his last years going gibberingly mad in an asylum due to syphilis eating his brain (and much of his face). When you consider Azathoth in context with that it makes a bit more sense. He wasn't trying to push an aetheist agenda or discredit Christianity but rather just working out his own inner demons through his work.
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**** What you have to realise is that, to a certain extent, every man bases his concept of 'god' on his own father and Lovecraft's father spent his last years going gibberingly mad in an asylum due to syphilis eating his brain (and much of his face). When you consider Azathoth in context with that it makes a bit more sense. He wasn't trying to push an aetheist agenda or discredit Christianity but rather just working out his own inner demons through his work.
***** That's pretty simplistic speculation. In private life Lovecraft was a straightforward atheist-materialist with a romantic streak - his stories were ''horror'' stories - they don't reflect what he actually believed, apart perhaps from the ''Silver Key'', which is mostly an AuthorTract about what bugs him about the society, including religion.
***** That's pretty simplistic speculation. In private life Lovecraft was a straightforward atheist-materialist with a romantic streak - his stories were ''horror'' stories - they don't reflect what he actually believed, apart perhaps from the ''Silver Key'', which is mostly an AuthorTract about what bugs him about the society, including religion.
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**** Again hope.
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**** Again hope.
***** This goes a bit off tracks, but then, it already has: you don't need to have hope about a God or meaning to the universe to give your own life a meaning. It most certainly doesn't automatically mean a trip to an asylum cell. Plenty of people go through their lives as atheists without a hint of worry about existential dread.
***** This goes a bit off tracks, but then, it already has: you don't need to have hope about a God or meaning to the universe to give your own life a meaning. It most certainly doesn't automatically mean a trip to an asylum cell. Plenty of people go through their lives as atheists without a hint of worry about existential dread.
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*** Even more surprised you didn't mention his poem 'The Origin of the Nigger' which is nothing more than a hateful racist tract written in rhyming couplets. Lovecraft came up with some good ideas for his Mythos stuff but was, essentially, a racist dick-face.
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*** Even more surprised you didn't mention his poem 'The Origin of the Nigger' which is nothing more than a hateful racist tract written in rhyming couplets. Lovecraft came up with some good ideas for his Mythos stuff but was, essentially, a racist dick-face.
*** He ''started'' as one. He got better. A quote concerning the subject from his own letters: "There was no getting out of it - I really had thrown all that haughty, complacent, snobbish, self-centered, intolerant bull, and at a mature age when anybody but a perfect damned fool would have known better!"
*** He ''started'' as one. He got better. A quote concerning the subject from his own letters: "There was no getting out of it - I really had thrown all that haughty, complacent, snobbish, self-centered, intolerant bull, and at a mature age when anybody but a perfect damned fool would have known better!"
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** "Cthulhu" is a proper noun for a single individual, but he represents a race of similar creatures, whose high priest and ruler he is.
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* Ok. Is Cthulhu merely a single entity, or is it a race of creatures?
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**** What you have to realise is that, to a certain extent, every man bases his concept of 'god' on his own father and Lovecraft's father spent his last years going gibberingly mad in an asylum due to syphilis eating his brain (and much of his face). When you consider Azathoth in context with that it makes a bit more sense. He wasn't trying to push an aetheist agenda or discredit Christianity but rather just working out his own inner demons through his work.
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**** Thing is, Lovecraft wasn't a great writer. At all. He had some cracking ideas and his Mythos was an amazing concept just because of the framework that these unimaginably alien and powerful beings couldn't care less about humanity but his prose was, in many cases, absolutely dire. There's one story in particular (I want to say the Colour Out of Space but I'm not 100% on that) where a character is writing his journal when something bursts through his window. The final line of the story is something along the lines of 'oh no, htey're outside now, they're coming through the window, arrrgh.' Because obviously when being attacked by an alien monstrosity you'd be sure to make sure your death-scream was recorded.
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*** Even more surprised you didn't mention his poem 'The Origin of the Nigger' which is nothing more than a hateful racist tract written in rhyming couplets. Lovecraft came up with some good ideas for his Mythos stuff but was, essentially, a racist dick-face.
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Lovecraft philosophy
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** This troper thinks that Lovecraft tells us that our vision of world is not objective and is not the same as any thinking entity will have. We just can't understand elders as they are blasting different from us. They might view themselves as something normal (Or they might not have such concepts as "normal", "themselves" or "concept") but they are so much bigger than us that our mind can't live with knowing that stuff like that exists.
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i wanted to contribute
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***I agree with that idea.
