History Headscratchers / BatmanReturns

2nd Aug '16 6:13:26 PM DocStone
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** It's likely they're not all or even mostly his old circus mates. A lot of them are probably street thugs who would be in one gang or another anyway, they just happened to pick the circus-themed one.
2nd Aug '16 6:09:47 PM DocStone
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** It may not have been the entire Red Triangle Gang, just the Penguin himself. But since children began disappearing anywhere the circus went (because he was a part of it), the entire troupe was suspected of kidnap.
9th Jul '16 2:10:34 PM DocStone
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** It may not have even been a mobster, just someone working for Penguin's campaign. Even if it was, organized crime is (usually) a quiet, stealthy game. Max would probably have a hard time convincing his mob connections to do something big, destructive, and public without risking their operations. On the other hand, the Red Triangle gang is by nature loud, senseless, and disruptive, and they were that wa even before Penguin had them rioting to stir up controversy for the campaign.

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** It may not have even been a mobster, just someone working for Penguin's campaign. Even if it was, organized crime is (usually) a quiet, stealthy game. Max would probably have a hard time convincing his mob connections to do something big, destructive, and public without risking their operations. On the other hand, the Red Triangle gang is by nature loud, senseless, and disruptive, and they were that wa way even before Penguin had them rioting to stir up controversy for the campaign.
9th Jul '16 2:10:12 PM DocStone
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* That shady guy Max was whispering to when the Penguin's speech was being sabotaged. He looked really [[TheMafia Mob-y]]. Does Max Shreck have - secretly, of course - underworld connections? If so, why didn't the Cobblepot campaign use ''them'' to create a crime wave throughout the city instead of the Red Triangle Gang? Surely ''someone'' would remember that they'd seen a kid who looked like Oswald in a circus once, and even remember which circus it was. Why give anyone the opportunity to put two and two together?

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* That shady guy Max was whispering to when the Penguin's speech was being sabotaged. He looked really [[TheMafia Mob-y]]. Does Max Shreck have - secretly, of course - underworld connections? If so, why didn't the Cobblepot campaign use ''them'' to create a crime wave throughout the city instead of the Red Triangle Gang? Surely ''someone'' would remember that they'd seen a kid who looked like Oswald in a circus once, and even remember which circus it was. Why give anyone the opportunity to put two and two together?together?
** It may not have even been a mobster, just someone working for Penguin's campaign. Even if it was, organized crime is (usually) a quiet, stealthy game. Max would probably have a hard time convincing his mob connections to do something big, destructive, and public without risking their operations. On the other hand, the Red Triangle gang is by nature loud, senseless, and disruptive, and they were that wa even before Penguin had them rioting to stir up controversy for the campaign.
9th Apr '16 9:38:18 PM 10-13-2
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** For that matter, did it ever occur to them what was in store for them if Cobblepot had actually been elected mayor? Shreck would have gotten his power plant, and Cobblepot would have access to all the fame and riches and women he could ever want...but what would his gang get out of it? Since the Cobblepot campaign was solely on an anti-crime platform, ''at best'' they'd all be arrested and locked up for years or even decades. Or Cobblepot might even decide to have them executed in a "Night of the Long Knives" reenactment. On the other hand, if they got lucky, Cobblepot would seize dictatorial powers and make them his personal death squad - and, let's be honest, that just wouldn't work. What chance would a band of carny sandinistas with ''some'' military-grade weapons have against the National Guard? Or the U.S. Army? Or even a U.N. peacekeeping force, if it had to come to that? Unless the Penguin has been running a secret terrorist cell somewhere, his reign of terror would be a very short one.
3rd Apr '16 4:22:32 PM FlashSteps
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** They're being led by the Penguin, who is a childlike monster who is effectively working through his anger at his parents by punishing dozens of other children, and treating them to the same thing. It's Penguin's plot all along, after all - his plan in Gotham is merely to use Shreck to gain access to places like the Gotham Hall of Records, take notes on that year's newborn children, and dump them in the sewer when the time came; He restarts this plan when his mayoral run gets derailed.
** I doubt it was a dry run for the Penguin's ultimate plan. Given how the circus members seem to have reacted (I assume the fat clown was simply the only one brave enough to speak up), they were unaware up 'till then of exactly what the Penguin intended to do with those lists of children. This troper's theory is that the screenwriter(s) were conflating some stereotypes about carnies/circus folk/traveling gypsies/other insular nomadic subcultures wherein it was said (however grotesquely inaccurately) that they would steal children. The usual stated purpose was that they adopted them and raised them to add to their own numbers. While the circus members are never explicitly stated to ''be'' in any way like that particular stereotype of traveling performers as child-snatchers, it does seem like this was intended as part of their backstory.

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** They're being led by the Penguin, who is a childlike monster who is effectively essentially working through his anger at his parents by punishing dozens of other children, and treating them to the same thing. It's Penguin's plot all along, after all - his plan in Gotham is merely to use Shreck to gain access to places like the Gotham Hall of Records, take notes on that year's newborn children, and dump them in the sewer when the time came; He restarts this plan when his mayoral run gets derailed.
** I doubt it was a dry run for the Penguin's ultimate plan. Given how the circus members seem to have reacted (I assume the fat clown was simply the only one brave enough to speak up), they were unaware up 'till then of exactly what the Penguin intended to do with those lists of children. This troper's My theory is that the screenwriter(s) were conflating some stereotypes about carnies/circus folk/traveling gypsies/other insular nomadic subcultures wherein it was said (however grotesquely inaccurately) that they would steal children. The usual stated purpose was that they adopted them and raised them to add to their own numbers. While the circus members are never explicitly stated to ''be'' in any way like that particular stereotype of traveling performers as child-snatchers, it does seem like this was intended as part of their backstory.



** This troper chalked it up to [[SpecialEffectFailure Special Effect Failure]] and it was fake snow they used in the scene. Nobody realized it would float till too late to fix.

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** This troper I chalked it up to [[SpecialEffectFailure Special Effect Failure]] and it was fake snow they used in the scene. Nobody realized it would float till too late to fix.



*** This is ''precisely'' what Enron did. However, the actual "power draining" portion of the plan is not, as far as this troper is aware, illegal, but their accounting practices. So, as long as he buried the terms of what the plant would actually do in {{Technobabble}} double talk, he'd have no reason to worry about it, making his attempted murder of Selena a bit unusual.

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*** This is ''precisely'' what Enron did. However, the actual "power draining" portion of the plan is not, as far as this troper is I'm aware, illegal, but their accounting practices. So, as long as he buried the terms of what the plant would actually do in {{Technobabble}} double talk, he'd have no reason to worry about it, making his attempted murder of Selena a bit unusual.



** This troper doesn't think the Penguin was being completely literal when he said that, he was just taunting Max and being a sadistic A-Hole in anticipation as his plan neared fruition.

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** This troper doesn't I don't think the Penguin was being completely literal when he said that, he was just taunting Max and being a sadistic A-Hole in anticipation as his plan neared fruition.



** For one, she wants justice and the police won't do anything. This troper sees her more as a vigilante than a straight-out bad guy. She also hated Batman for killing her, so she's likely hate Shreck for the same reasons.

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** For one, she wants justice and the police won't do anything. This troper sees I see her more as a vigilante than a straight-out bad guy. She also hated Batman for killing her, so she's likely hate Shreck for the same reasons.
1st Apr '16 7:27:04 AM Peridonyx
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* If the sewer water is supposedly toxic, then how can The Penguin's, well, penguins swim in it without suffering any effects whatsoever?


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** Likely fear and/or StockholmSyndrome.
27th Mar '16 6:36:19 AM thecarolinabull01
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** I always assumed he was saying that sarcastically in order to try and cause some sort of distraction. Especially at the way he says "was." If he wasn't, then wow.

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** I always assumed he was saying that sarcastically intentionally playing dumb in order to try and cause some sort of distraction. Especially at the way he says "was." If he wasn't, then wow.
27th Mar '16 6:35:01 AM thecarolinabull01
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** I always assumed he was saying that sarcastically in order to try and cause some sort of distraction. Especially at the way he says "was." If he wasn't, then wow.
6th Mar '16 11:33:18 PM 10-13-2
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* Okay, so the citizens of Gotham immediately turn against Penguin because of an audio recording? Voice recordings can be manipulated and altered. Yes, we the audience know Penguin is a scumbag, but a voice can be imitated. If you heard an audio recording of a senate saying despicable things, would you believe it?

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* Okay, so the citizens of Gotham immediately turn against Penguin because of an audio recording? Voice recordings can be manipulated and altered. Yes, we the audience know Penguin is a scumbag, but a voice can be imitated. If you heard an audio recording of a senate saying despicable things, would you believe it?it?
* Why on earth would the circus people ''stay'' with the Penguin? They should hate him! He cost them their jobs; he makes them live in a freezing, smelly sewer; he sends them out to commit mindless acts of violence that never seem to involve theft or any other profitable crime; and [[BadBoss he hits them or even kills them whenever he gets angry]]. And why would they decide to follow a disfigured young boy in the first place?
* That shady guy Max was whispering to when the Penguin's speech was being sabotaged. He looked really [[TheMafia Mob-y]]. Does Max Shreck have - secretly, of course - underworld connections? If so, why didn't the Cobblepot campaign use ''them'' to create a crime wave throughout the city instead of the Red Triangle Gang? Surely ''someone'' would remember that they'd seen a kid who looked like Oswald in a circus once, and even remember which circus it was. Why give anyone the opportunity to put two and two together?
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