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Is it just me, or are people trying to post plotholes on here instead of noting actual Fridge Logic and/or Brilliance?



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** They literally state earlier in the movie that he must have had Romulan collaborators.
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No, they weren\'t. Damaged, yes. Wiped out? Senator Vreenak, the Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar, would disagree with you.


** The Tal Shiar were all but wiped out at the Battle of the Omarion Nebula 8 years or so before the events of ''Nemesis''.

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** The Tal Shiar were all but wiped out at the Battle of the Omarion Nebula 8 years or so before the events of ''Nemesis''.
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** The Tal Shiar were all but wiped out at the Battle of the Omarion Nebula 8 years or so before the events of ''Nemesis''

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** The Tal Shiar were all but wiped out at the Battle of the Omarion Nebula 8 years or so before the events of ''Nemesis''
''Nemesis''.
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** The Tal Shiar were all but wiped out at the Battle of the Omarion Nebula 8 years or so before the events of ''Nemesis''
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** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation A number of things regarding Shinzon]]:

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** * [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation A number of things regarding Shinzon]]:



*** In short, Shinzon is exactly what he appears to be: essentially a teenage boy trying to act like a man, trying to prove he's better than the original, AND desperately trying to prove his worth period before he expires. This with all the impulses (and desires) that come with that phase, summed up in the appropriate line "All I have ''are'' my personal feelings". [[RealityEnsues And we see him steadily come apart as the film goes on.]]

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*** ** In short, Shinzon is exactly what he appears to be: essentially a teenage boy trying to act like a man, trying to prove he's better than the original, AND desperately trying to prove his worth period before he expires. This with all the impulses (and desires) that come with that phase, summed up in the appropriate line "All I have ''are'' my personal feelings". [[RealityEnsues And we see him steadily come apart as the film goes on.]]

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This is something I attempted to explain in my fanfic Emael Mosekhesailho, incidentally.


* FridgeLogic: Minor one, during Deanna's search for the Scimitar by mind-locating the viceroy. Why the need to play handsies with Worf? Didn't she go through a long and taxing bridge commander test way back when? Surely there was a chapter involving manning the tactical console.

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!FridgeLogic
* FridgeLogic: Minor one, during Deanna's search for the Scimitar by mind-locating the viceroy. Why the need to play handsies with Worf? Didn't she go through a long and taxing bridge commander test way back when? Surely there was a chapter involving manning the tactical console.



* FridgeLogic: Shinzon has a grudge against the Romulans for creating him, lumbering him with a genetic disease, and consigning him to a life of misery in the Reman mines. Therefore, he wants to utterly annihilate... er, Earth.

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* FridgeLogic: Shinzon has a grudge against the Romulans for creating him, lumbering him with a genetic disease, and consigning him to a life of misery in the Reman mines. Therefore, he wants to utterly annihilate... er, Earth.




* FridgeLogic: Why isn't Worf the one to go on the suicide run on the Reman ship? He lived through the last big war, and his religion actually ''requires'' him to seek a glorious death. In the other movies Picard being the one to go in is due to circumstances or necessity, but here it makes no sense.

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\n* FridgeLogic: Why isn't Worf the one to go on the suicide run on the Reman ship? He lived through the last big war, and his religion actually ''requires'' him to seek a glorious death. In the other movies Picard being the one to go in is due to circumstances or necessity, but here it makes no sense.




* FridgeHorror: Admittedly, he doesn't want the promotion, but in what just universe is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, saviour of the Federation on more than one occasion, taking orders from a two-bit vice-admiral who was ''not even born'' when he was promoted to Captain and managed to screw up the one mission she had been officially given by Starfleet in seven years of Captaincy? (That is, search, locate, and apprehend a ship containing marquis and crew.) What does this say about the quality of Starfleet's Admirals???

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\n* FridgeHorror: Shinzon's MilitaryCoup makes very little sense in terms of the larger ''Franchise/StarTrek'' setting. How did the conspirators manage to get their conspiracy past the Tal Shiar, the ''notoriously'' intrusive StateSec agency of the Romulan Star Empire (who in particular have a nasty InterServiceRivalry with the regular military)? How were they planning to pass a human off as praetor to the frankly [[FantasticRacism quite racist]] Romulans, and how were they to explain where in the hell he came from and why he's using what ought to be SlaveMooks as his private army?

! FridgeHorror
*
Admittedly, he doesn't want the promotion, but in what just universe is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, saviour of the Federation on more than one occasion, taking orders from a two-bit vice-admiral who was ''not even born'' when he was promoted to Captain and managed to screw up the one mission she had been officially given by Starfleet in seven years of Captaincy? (That is, search, locate, and apprehend a ship containing marquis and crew.) What does this say about the quality of Starfleet's Admirals???



* FridgeBrilliance: [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation A number of things regarding Shinzon]]:

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* FridgeBrilliance: ! FridgeBrilliance
**
[[AlternateCharacterInterpretation A number of things regarding Shinzon]]:
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** Alternatively, considering its a major tactical situation, maybe it was more efficient? The battle was unlikely to be decided by that one shot, so as soon as the Scimitar decloaked, Worf would have to take back over anyway and they'd lose valuable seconds in Troi stepping aside and him stepping up compared to her just taking her hand away. Also, if the Scimitar was able to recloak again, they'd have to do it all over again, costing more seconds. Also, iirc (unless I'm remembering fanon as canon) - doesn't the LCARS interface used in TNG era ships mean that each officer can reconfigure the interface to their personal preferences? Maybe Worf's preferences are non-standard and to avoid confusion, Troi was also using her abilities on Worf to direct him rather than trying to figure out the consol herself.
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counterpoint

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** That was on a Galaxy-class ship, though, and by Nemesis it's been ten years since then. There is probably a recertification process for bridge officers (especially when transitioning to an entirely different class) and it doesn't seem out of character for Troi (who struggled so hard the first time and clearly didn't require it to fulfill her duties beforehand) to quietly opt-out
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*** Not that informed really. He needs Picard alive, so he's obviously not shooting to kill on the Enterprise (only after the collision does he decide to go with a TakingYouWithMe approach, since he's basically dead anyway.) Notice that he dispatched the two Romulan warbirds in fairly short order, including one PlayingDead trick on the supposedly seasoned captain.
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** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times, because he liked being a starship captain and didn't want a desk job. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't. It's also very likely that Janeway was KickedUpstairs, because while she did get Voyager home, she was never a very effective captain or leader. Also, at the end of Generations, Kirk WARNED Picard. "Don't let them promote you or transfer you. You belong on the bridge of taht ship." Kirk had firsthand experience with losing his starship command by being promoted to Admiral.

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** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times, because he liked being a starship captain and didn't want a desk job. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't. It's also very likely that Janeway was KickedUpstairs, because while she did get Voyager home, she was never a very effective captain or leader. Also, at the end of Generations, Kirk WARNED Picard. "Don't let them promote you or transfer you. You belong on the bridge of taht that ship." Kirk had firsthand experience with losing his starship command by being promoted to Admiral.
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** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times, because he liked being a starship captain and didn't want a desk job. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't. It's also very likely that Janeway was KickedUpstairs, because while she did get Voyager home, she was never a very effective captain or leader.

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** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times, because he liked being a starship captain and didn't want a desk job. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't. It's also very likely that Janeway was KickedUpstairs, because while she did get Voyager home, she was never a very effective captain or leader. Also, at the end of Generations, Kirk WARNED Picard. "Don't let them promote you or transfer you. You belong on the bridge of taht ship." Kirk had firsthand experience with losing his starship command by being promoted to Admiral.
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* FridgeLogic: Minor one, during Deanna's search for the Scimitar by mind-locating the viceroy. Why the need to play handsies with Worf? Didn't she go through a long and taxing bridge commander test way back when? Surely there was a chapter involving manning the tactical console.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't. It's also very likely that Janeway was KickedUpstairs, because while she did get Voyager home, she was never a very effective captain or leader.

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** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times.times, because he liked being a starship captain and didn't want a desk job. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't. It's also very likely that Janeway was KickedUpstairs, because while she did get Voyager home, she was never a very effective captain or leader.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't.

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** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't. It's also very likely that Janeway was KickedUpstairs, because while she did get Voyager home, she was never a very effective captain or leader.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 17001-D. When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't.

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** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 17001-D. 1701-D. It's also very likely (but again not directly stated) that he was offered admiral again during the Dominion War (also turning it down). When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Starfleet was a lot more desperate for people then, and Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't.
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None

Added DiffLines:

** Picard was offered promotion to admiral TWICE during TNG. He turned it down both times. It was also hinted (but not directly stated) that he had been offered admiral even before he took command of the 17001-D. When Janeway got back from the Delta quadrant, it was shortly after the Dominion War ended (a war that caused the Federation to lose a LOT of people). Janeway just happened to take the first promotion that was offered her, while Picard didn't.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** In short, Shinzon is exactly what he appears to be: essentially a teenage boy trying to act like a man, trying to prove he's better than the original, AND desperately trying to prove his worth period before he expires. This with all the impulses (and desires) that come with that phase. [[RealityEnsues And we see him steadily come apart as the film goes on.]]

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*** In short, Shinzon is exactly what he appears to be: essentially a teenage boy trying to act like a man, trying to prove he's better than the original, AND desperately trying to prove his worth period before he expires. This with all the impulses (and desires) that come with that phase.phase, summed up in the appropriate line "All I have ''are'' my personal feelings". [[RealityEnsues And we see him steadily come apart as the film goes on.]]
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** Also, Starfleet may have figured that Picard is far more useful out there "on the field" than chained to a desk job. Picard has been the best at being the flag ship's captain since Kirk, and they want to benefit from that as long as possible.

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** Also, Starfleet may have figured that Picard is far more useful out there "on the field" than chained to a desk job. Picard has been the best at being the flag ship's captain since Kirk, and they want to benefit profit from that as long as possible.
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** Also, Starfleet may have figured that Picard is far more useful out there "on the field" than chained to a desk job. Picard has been the best at being the flag ship's captain since Kirk, and they want to profit from that as long as possible.

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** Also, Starfleet may have figured that Picard is far more useful out there "on the field" than chained to a desk job. Picard has been the best at being the flag ship's captain since Kirk, and they want to profit benefit from that as long as possible.
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** Also, Starfleet may have figured that Picard is far more useful out there "on the field" than chained to a desk job. Picard has been the best at being the flag ship's captain since Kirk, and they want to profit from that as long as possible.
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* FridgeBrilliance: [[AlternateCharacterInterpration A number of things regarding Shinzon]]:

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* FridgeBrilliance: [[AlternateCharacterInterpration [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation A number of things regarding Shinzon]]:



*** In short, Shinzon is exactly what he appears to be: essentially a teenage boy trying to act like a man, trying to prove he's better than the original, AND desperately trying to prove his worth period before he expires. This with all the impulses (and desires) that come with that phase. [[RealityEnsures And we see him steadily come apart as the film goes on.]]

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*** In short, Shinzon is exactly what he appears to be: essentially a teenage boy trying to act like a man, trying to prove he's better than the original, AND desperately trying to prove his worth period before he expires. This with all the impulses (and desires) that come with that phase. [[RealityEnsures [[RealityEnsues And we see him steadily come apart as the film goes on.]]
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** Some people, like Website/SFDebris, have theorized that Janeway had gotten so exhausted after many years stranded in the Delta Quadrant that she couldn't ''bear'' to take another command, let alone immediately after finally getting home. Or that she was KickedUpstairs to get rid of her.

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** Some people, like Website/SFDebris, have theorized that Janeway had gotten so exhausted after many years stranded in the Delta Quadrant that she couldn't ''bear'' to take another command, let alone immediately after finally getting home. Or that she was KickedUpstairs to get rid of her.her.

* FridgeBrilliance: [[AlternateCharacterInterpration A number of things regarding Shinzon]]:
** His InformedAbility as a tactician and command leader is just that; informed. However, despite being enslaved in the mines, the Remans do work with the Romulans on a daily basis, even if unwillingly... and above all else, Romulans are known as masters of deceit and lies. Bit-by-bit, the Remans could learn enough to emulate these strategies - so who's to say some other tactician led and won the mentioned Dominion War battles, was killed off, and the records were altered to make Shinzon take his place? With enough support/threats/bribery, they could also back up the illusion until it wasn't questioned anymore.
** The rapidly-changing plan, first wanting to liberate his Reman brothers, then proving something to the RSE, and finally going to prove he's better than his clone. Well consider this: he was engineered as a clone, with temporal RNA sequencing designed to make him skip 30 years of his life, matching the original... which was never activated, causing a breakdown in his cells. And like the base of a pyramid, if the base started to become increasingly unstable, wouldn't it disturb everything above? Both physically AND mentally? Without the telepathic stablization from his Viceroy, one wonders if he'd still be sane at all.
*** In short, Shinzon is exactly what he appears to be: essentially a teenage boy trying to act like a man, trying to prove he's better than the original, AND desperately trying to prove his worth period before he expires. This with all the impulses (and desires) that come with that phase. [[RealityEnsures And we see him steadily come apart as the film goes on.]]
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** Some people, like Website/SFDebris, have theorized that Janeway had gotten so exhausted after many years stranded in the Delta Quadrant that she couldn't ''bear'' to take another command, let alone immediately after finally getting home.

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** Some people, like Website/SFDebris, have theorized that Janeway had gotten so exhausted after many years stranded in the Delta Quadrant that she couldn't ''bear'' to take another command, let alone immediately after finally getting home. Or that she was KickedUpstairs to get rid of her.
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** That they reward people who unite two hostile crews, cross a considerable portion of a hostile, uncharted quadrant, making friendly contact with dozens of species, saved the galaxy from a species from another dimension or two and crippled the borg? And they don't punish people for getting grabbed by hyper advanced technology against their will. And hell, she DID bring them back like she was supposed to.

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** That they reward people who unite two hostile crews, cross a considerable portion of a hostile, uncharted quadrant, making friendly contact with dozens of species, saved the galaxy from a species from another dimension or two and crippled the borg? And they don't punish people for getting grabbed by hyper advanced technology against their will. And hell, she DID bring them back like she was supposed to.to.
** Some people, like Website/SFDebris, have theorized that Janeway had gotten so exhausted after many years stranded in the Delta Quadrant that she couldn't ''bear'' to take another command, let alone immediately after finally getting home.
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* FridgeHorror: Admittedly, he doesn't want the promotion, but in what just universe is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, saviour of the Federation on more than one occasion, taking orders from a two-bit vice-admiral who was ''not even born'' when he was promoted to Captain and managed to screw up the one mission she had been officially given by Starfleet in seven years of Captaincy? (That is, search, locate, and apprehend a ship containing marquis and crew.) What does this say about the quality of Starfleet's Admirals???

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* FridgeHorror: Admittedly, he doesn't want the promotion, but in what just universe is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, saviour of the Federation on more than one occasion, taking orders from a two-bit vice-admiral who was ''not even born'' when he was promoted to Captain and managed to screw up the one mission she had been officially given by Starfleet in seven years of Captaincy? (That is, search, locate, and apprehend a ship containing marquis and crew.) What does this say about the quality of Starfleet's Admirals???Admirals???
** That they reward people who unite two hostile crews, cross a considerable portion of a hostile, uncharted quadrant, making friendly contact with dozens of species, saved the galaxy from a species from another dimension or two and crippled the borg? And they don't punish people for getting grabbed by hyper advanced technology against their will. And hell, she DID bring them back like she was supposed to.
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* FridgeHorror: Admittedly, he doesn't want the promotion, but in what just universe is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, saviour of the Federation on more than one occasion, taking orders from a two-bit vice-admiral who was ''not even born'' when he was promoted to Captain and managed to screw up the one mission she had been officially given by Starfleet in seven years of Captaincy? (That is, search, locate, and apprehend a ship containing marquis and crew.)

to:

* FridgeHorror: Admittedly, he doesn't want the promotion, but in what just universe is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, saviour of the Federation on more than one occasion, taking orders from a two-bit vice-admiral who was ''not even born'' when he was promoted to Captain and managed to screw up the one mission she had been officially given by Starfleet in seven years of Captaincy? (That is, search, locate, and apprehend a ship containing marquis and crew.)) What does this say about the quality of Starfleet's Admirals???
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** Because he was still fighting off the Reman boarding partym and in the novelization, a bad disruptor hit forced him into Sickbay; he was completely occupied in either case. Plus, he wasn't even on the bridge when Picard announced this decision, so he couldn't object even if he wanted to.

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** Because he was still fighting off the Reman boarding partym and in the novelization, a bad disruptor hit forced him into Sickbay; he was completely occupied in either case. Plus, he wasn't even on the bridge when Picard announced this decision, so he couldn't object even if he wanted to.to.

*FridgeHorror: Admittedly, he doesn't want the promotion, but in what just universe is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, saviour of the Federation on more than one occasion, taking orders from a two-bit vice-admiral who was ''not even born'' when he was promoted to Captain and managed to screw up the one mission she had been officially given by Starfleet in seven years of Captaincy? (That is, search, locate, and apprehend a ship containing marquis and crew.)
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* FridgeLogic: Why isn't Worf the one to go on the suicide run on the Reman ship? He lived through the last big war, and his religion actually ''requires'' him to seek a glorious death. In the other movies Picard being the one to go in is due to circumstances or necessity, but here it makes no sense.

to:

* FridgeLogic: Why isn't Worf the one to go on the suicide run on the Reman ship? He lived through the last big war, and his religion actually ''requires'' him to seek a glorious death. In the other movies Picard being the one to go in is due to circumstances or necessity, but here it makes no sense.sense.
** Because he was still fighting off the Reman boarding partym and in the novelization, a bad disruptor hit forced him into Sickbay; he was completely occupied in either case. Plus, he wasn't even on the bridge when Picard announced this decision, so he couldn't object even if he wanted to.
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** The Enterprise received six positronic signals, but only one of Data's components (his postrionic brain) would register such a signal. Each of B-4's parts also apparently has its own power source, if the "zombie hand from the sand" is any indicator.

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** The Enterprise received six positronic signals, but only one of Data's components (his postrionic brain) would register such a signal. Each of B-4's parts also apparently has its own power source, if the "zombie hand from the sand" is any indicator.indicator.

*FridgeLogic: Why isn't Worf the one to go on the suicide run on the Reman ship? He lived through the last big war, and his religion actually ''requires'' him to seek a glorious death. In the other movies Picard being the one to go in is due to circumstances or necessity, but here it makes no sense.
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** His talk about the Remans being a race "bred for war" implies that he and they are basically a bunch of [[BloodKnight Blood Knights]] who want to start a war, this time on their own terms and not as slaves of the Romulan Empire. By extension they can be read as trying to show the Romulans up, taking out the Federation in one shot after centuries of similar Romulan plots failed. It's still pretty vague, though.

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