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* When John Doe reveals that [[spoiler: he murdered Tracy, his exact words leading up to TheReveal are "I tried to play husband. I tried to taste the life of a simple man." This begs the question ''just what the fuck did Doe put poor Tracy through before he killed her?'']]
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** The reason Somerset doesn't stop Mills was actually already established earlier in the film. [[spoiler: After Mills got outwitted and almost killed by John, he is very emotional and angry. Somerset tries to tell him that breaking into John Doe's apartment without a warrant would make it hard to convict him in court, since what they find could get thrown out by a judge. Mills pretends to calm down, only for him to kick the door open to John's apartment anyway. Somerset realized then that Mills is too emotional and can't be reasoned with.]]
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*** Then again, from what we see of the Mills' family dogs, they appear to be well-fed and cared for. Assuming that they had been fed recently, there's a chance they may not have been hungry enough to start nibbling on the body before it was discovered, however slim.
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** It's also possible that the dogs would be unable to get to [[spoiler: Tracy's body.]] Remember when Somerset comes over for dinner and David playfully asks Tracy where the "kids" are and she replies "in their room"? We then see David go into a closed room of the apartment to play with the dogs. It's possible that the Mills keep the dogs in their own separate room for part of time, possibly for them to play in, sleep in, or just to keep them from getting underfoot while David and Tracy move into a new apartment. If the dogs were in their room when [[spoiler: Tracy was killed,]] it's possible Doe didn't bother to kill them and it is also unlikely the dogs could break down the door to get at [[spoiler: the corpse.]] Though this does introduce a new element of FridgeHorror. If the dogs were in their room [[spoiler: that means they could hear their beloved mistress being attacked and murdered in the other room and were unable to do anything to protect her.]]
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*** Actually, it's mentioned that Gluttony passed out and Doe kicked him, causing his already strained insides to burst so he DOES kill Gluttony directly.
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* Doe's MO of turning the sin on the sinner kind of falls apart with the Sloth victim. Yes, the victim is a sinner (a drug dealing pederast according to Doe) but those crimes aren't exactly slothful. Gluttony and lust, maybe, but not sloth.
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* When Mills is chasing John Doe, he looks out of an apartment window and Doe fires on him from outside, next to some birds. One would expect the birds to take flight due to the noise from the gunshots, but one could probably conclude that even the birds in the city are apathetic to the goings on around them.
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* When Mills is chasing John Doe, he looks out of an apartment window and Doe fires on him from outside, next to some birds. One would expect the birds to take flight due to the noise from the gunshots, but one could probably conclude that even the birds in the city are apathetic to the goings on around them.them.
* How skewered Doe's interpretation of Christianity is becomes even more apparent when you realize that most of Doe's theology comes from post-Biblical sources and even fictional literature not recognized as canonical by any church. What Biblical references he does make are fairly vague and common knowledge to a layman. It shows how little he actually knows/cares about actual Christianity, using the themes as more of an excuse than actual inspiration.
* How skewered Doe's interpretation of Christianity is becomes even more apparent when you realize that most of Doe's theology comes from post-Biblical sources and even fictional literature not recognized as canonical by any church. What Biblical references he does make are fairly vague and common knowledge to a layman. It shows how little he actually knows/cares about actual Christianity, using the themes as more of an excuse than actual inspiration.
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****** The problem with that is that Doe clearly ''wants'' to be considered the perpetrator of these crimes. He outright states that "What ''I've done'' is going to be puzzled over and studied and followed...forever." Doe thinks of himself as delivering some kind of divine justice on the victims, but isn't that still murdering them?
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* The opening scene gives an exact characterization of Somerset's thinking patterns and reasoning in comparison to those of the people around him. When investigating the murder-suicide in the beginning, he sees children's drawings on the fridge and asks if the child saw the deaths, much to the chagrin of the officer accompanying him. What the officer doesn't realize is that, if the child saw it, their testimony could be the difference between this being labeled a murder-''suicide''...or a ''double'' murder.
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** He would probably have had to kill the dogs - I don't think those big pooches would have stood by quietly while he killed their mistress.
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***** Of course it doesn't in real world logic, but in the mind of John Doe...
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**** That's like saying Jigsaw didn't kill anyone by putting them in horrific death traps that would kill them if they didn't impart some terrible emotional or physical injury onto themselves. John Doe went into each murder planning for the death of the sinner, one way or the other. I mean, does "do this horrible thing which will eventually lead to your (or someone else's) death or I shoot you and kill you anyway" really sound like he was giving them the option to opt out, or that what they did was of their own volition? The only one you can really make a case for is the Pride murder, as he gave her a chance to get help (and people who might have been able to get her a new nose). Puppeteering people into killing themselves or others with the threat of instant death doesn't count as not committing a murder.
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* ''{{Se7en}}'': [[spoiler: Tracy Mills was murdered at the Mills household, and had her head removed and sent to Mills. Her remains should be left rotting at home by the end of the film since nobody knew of that murder yet. The FridgeHorror: the family keeps dogs indoors.]]
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* ''{{Se7en}}'': [[spoiler: Tracy Mills was murdered at the Mills household, and had her head removed and sent to Mills. Her remains should be left rotting at home by the end of the film since nobody knew of that murder yet. The FridgeHorror: the family keeps dogs indoors.]]
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* Doe has an obsessive hatred against "sinners", a grandiose sense of self-worth, and is a perverted sexual sadist. This makes him more guilty of Wrath, Pride and Lust than the victims of those sins. [[JustifiedTrope But since he's clearly a nutjob]], this is probably a literal case of InsaneTrollLogic.
** More generally, though: it's been [[GrayRainOfDepression raining in the city]] for nearly a week and it's implied the city gets a lot of rain. At the climax of the movie, our heroes head out of the city into the immediate environs... which are a flat desert that behaves as though it hasn't seen rain in months[[note]]which, conveniently, is the geography [[CaliforniaDoubling closest and cheapest to Los Angeles]][[/note]]. [[YouFailGeographyForever Right, then.]]
** More generally, though: it's been [[GrayRainOfDepression raining in the city]] for nearly a week and it's implied the city gets a lot of rain. At the climax of the movie, our heroes head out of the city into the immediate environs... which are a flat desert that behaves as though it hasn't seen rain in months[[note]]which, conveniently, is the geography [[CaliforniaDoubling closest and cheapest to Los Angeles]][[/note]]. [[YouFailGeographyForever Right, then.]]
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* When Mills is chasing John Doe, he looks out of an apartment window and Doe fires on him from outside, next to some birds. One would expect the birds to take flight due to the noise from the gunshots, but one could probably conclude that even the birds in the city are apathetic to the goings on around them.
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* When Mills is chasing John Doe, he looks out of an apartment window and Doe fires on him from outside, next to some birds. One would expect the birds to take flight due to the noise from the gunshots, but one could probably conclude that even the birds in the city are apathetic to the goings on around them.
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*** Except that the Gluttony victim was tied to a chair and force-fed by Doe till he burst. So Doe still kills him directly, just not via conventional means.
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** Who said that all the people committing the sins had to die, or that only those people would be harmed? That's a faulty assumption on your part. It was a moral sermon on the failings of the people under the influence of each sin and a statement showing the consequences of those sins. Gluttony leads to morbid obesity/eating to death, sloth leads to the godawful degeneration of the drug user, being guilty of envy and wrath led both to become murderers and take the life of an innocent or unarmed and helpless man respectively, etc.
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** Who said that all the people committing the sins had to die, or that only those people would be harmed? That's a faulty assumption on your part. It was a moral sermon on the failings of the people under the influence of each sin and a statement showing the consequences of those sins. Gluttony leads to morbid obesity/eating to death, sloth Sloth leads to the godawful degeneration of the drug user, being guilty of envy Envy and wrath Wrath led both to become murderers and take the life of an innocent or unarmed and helpless man respectively, etc.
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** The wrath victim is actually a case of ShownTheirWork. During the time period when Dante lived [[spoiler:if a man was sentenced to death they could either kill him or kill his wife and children. The loss of his entire family was considered equal to taking his life. David Mills is the wrath victim but instead of killing him John Doe kills his wife and child.]] John Doe foreshadows it when he tells [[spoiler:Mills "whatever life I allow you to have".]]
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** The wrath Wrath victim is actually a case of ShownTheirWork. During the time period when Dante lived [[spoiler:if a man was sentenced to death they could either kill him or kill his wife and children. The loss of his entire family was considered equal to taking his life. David Mills is the wrath Wrath victim but instead of killing him John Doe kills his wife and child.]] John Doe foreshadows it when he tells [[spoiler:Mills "whatever life I allow you to have".]]
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*** Well, of course, he was probably never ''really'' guilty of Envy and was just manipulating Mills, but thats justified since the killer is a ''massive'' hypocrite.
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*** Well, of course, he was probably never ''really'' guilty of Envy and was just manipulating Mills, but thats that's justified since the killer is a ''massive'' hypocrite.
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** Who said that all the people committing the sins had to die, or that only those people would be harmed? That's a fault assumption on your part. It was a moral sermon on the failings of the people under the influence of each sin and a statement showing the consequences of those sins. Gluttony leads to morbid obesity/eating to death, sloth leads to the godawful degeneration of the drug user, being guilty of envy and wrath led both to become murderers and take the life of an innocent or unarmed and helpless man respectively, etc.
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** Who said that all the people committing the sins had to die, or that only those people would be harmed? That's a fault faulty assumption on your part. It was a moral sermon on the failings of the people under the influence of each sin and a statement showing the consequences of those sins. Gluttony leads to morbid obesity/eating to death, sloth leads to the godawful degeneration of the drug user, being guilty of envy and wrath led both to become murderers and take the life of an innocent or unarmed and helpless man respectively, etc.
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** Doe was envious of Mills' entire life so he probably did killed the dogs.
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** Doe was envious of Mills' entire life so he probably did killed kill the dogs.
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** Doe's plan is ''much'' more ingenious than that. To start with, he personally kills only [[spoiler: one individual in the entire film -- namely Tracy, who was innocent.]] In fact, all of the "sinners" are killed by [[spoiler: someone other than Doe. Pride takes poison, Gluttony eats until he bursts, Greed mutilates himself, the Lust killer is the john, and Doe himself is shot by Mills. We don't know about Sloth but it's reasonable to assume that he was forced into the bed at gunpoint.]] Of course all of these actions were taken under duress, but each person had the option of refusing to play their part in Doe's plan, and none of them did. [[spoiler: Sloth and Mills]] are both still breathing when Doe is finished with them, but that is irrelevant -- their lives also have been destroyed.
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** Doe's plan is ''much'' more ingenious than that. To start with, he personally kills only [[spoiler: one individual in the entire film -- namely Tracy, who was innocent.]] In fact, all of the "sinners" are killed by [[spoiler: someone other than Doe.Doe, and often by their own actions. Pride takes poison, Gluttony eats until he bursts, Greed mutilates himself, the Lust killer is the john, and Doe himself is shot by Mills. We don't know about Sloth but it's reasonable to assume that he was forced into the bed at gunpoint.]] Of course all of these actions were taken this is done under duress, but each person had the option of refusing to play their part in Doe's plan, and none of them did. [[spoiler: Sloth and Mills]] are both still breathing when Doe is finished with them, but that is irrelevant -- their lives also have been destroyed.
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** Doe's plan is ''much'' more ingenious than that. To start with, he personally kills only [[spoiler: one person in the entire film -- namely Tracy, who was innocent.]] If you think about it, all of the "sinners" are killed by [[spoiler: someone other than Doe. Pride takes poison, Gluttony eats until he bursts, Greed mutilates himself, the Lust killer is the john, and Doe himself is shot by Mills. We don't know about Sloth but it's reasonable to assume that he, too, was forced into the bed at gunpoint.]] Of course all of these actions were taken under duress, but each person had the option of refusing to obey Doe's orders, and none of them did. [[spoiler: Sloth and Mills]] are both still breathing when Doe is finished with them, but that is irrelevant -- their lives also have been destroyed.
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** Doe's plan is ''much'' more ingenious than that. To start with, he personally kills only [[spoiler: one person individual in the entire film -- namely Tracy, who was innocent.]] If you think about it, In fact, all of the "sinners" are killed by [[spoiler: someone other than Doe. Pride takes poison, Gluttony eats until he bursts, Greed mutilates himself, the Lust killer is the john, and Doe himself is shot by Mills. We don't know about Sloth but it's reasonable to assume that he, too, he was forced into the bed at gunpoint.]] Of course all of these actions were taken under duress, but each person had the option of refusing to obey play their part in Doe's orders, plan, and none of them did. [[spoiler: Sloth and Mills]] are both still breathing when Doe is finished with them, but that is irrelevant -- their lives also have been destroyed.
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** Doe's plan is ''much'' more ingenious than that. To start with, he personally kills only [[spoiler: one person in the entire film -- namely Tracy, who was innocent.]] If you think about it, all of the "sinners" are killed by [[spoiler: someone other than Doe. Pride takes poison, Gluttony eats until he bursts, Greed mutilates himself, the Lust killer is the john, and Doe himself is shot by Mills. We don't know about Sloth but it's reasonable to assume that he, too, was forced into the bed at gunpoint.]] Of course all of these actions were taken under duress, but each person had the option of refusing to obey Doe's orders, and none of them did. [[spoiler: Sloth and Mills]] are both still breathing when Doe is finished with them, but that is irrelevant -- their lives also have been destroyed.
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** He probably [[spoiler: doesn't want to get shot either; Mills is on the edge and just as likely to shoot him anyway by accident. It might also have been instinct; if I'm not mistaken, police procedure in these matters is to keep calm and make no sudden movements which might spook the man with the gun.]]
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[[AC:FridgeBrilliance]]
*When Mills is chasing John Doe, he looks out of an apartment window and Doe fires on him from outside, next to some birds. One would expect the birds to take flight due to the noise from the gunshots, but one could probably conclude that even the birds in the city are apathetic to the goings on around them.
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* Somerset must have wanted [[spoiler:Mills to kill Doe, at least on some level. If not then why does he just stand there beside Doe? If he really didn't want Mills to shoot him all he had to do was step between them and block the line of shot.]]
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*** Well, of course, he was probably never ''really'' guilty of Envy and was just manipulating Mills, but thats justified since the killer is a ''massive'' hypocrite.
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*** Well, of course, he was probably never ''really'' guilty of Envy and was just manipulating Mills, but thats justified since the killer is a ''massive'' hypocrite.hypocrite.
** The wrath victim is actually a case of ShownTheirWork. During the time period when Dante lived [[spoiler:if a man was sentenced to death they could either kill him or kill his wife and children. The loss of his entire family was considered equal to taking his life. David Mills is the wrath victim but instead of killing him John Doe kills his wife and child.]] John Doe foreshadows it when he tells [[spoiler:Mills "whatever life I allow you to have".]]
** The wrath victim is actually a case of ShownTheirWork. During the time period when Dante lived [[spoiler:if a man was sentenced to death they could either kill him or kill his wife and children. The loss of his entire family was considered equal to taking his life. David Mills is the wrath victim but instead of killing him John Doe kills his wife and child.]] John Doe foreshadows it when he tells [[spoiler:Mills "whatever life I allow you to have".]]
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** Doe was envious of Mills' entire life so he probably did killed the dogs.
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**** The above statement is correct, and loyalty has nothing to do with it- there are numerous documented cases of accidental and natural death victims being partially eaten by family dogs and cats. They probably wouldn't even have any real time to rot before the pooches move in...
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** Who said that all the people committing the sins had to die, or that only those people would be harmed? That's a fault assumption on your part. It was a moral sermon on the failings of the people under the influence of each sin and a statement showing the consequences of those sins. Gluttony leads to morbid obesity/eating to death, sloth leads to the godawful degeneration of the drug user, being guilty of envy and wrath led both to become murderers and take the life of an innocent or unarmed and helpless man respectively, etc.
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** Who said that all the people committing the sins had to die, or that only those people would be harmed? That's a fault assumption on your part. It was a moral sermon on the failings of the people under the influence of each sin and a statement showing the consequences of those sins. Gluttony leads to morbid obesity/eating to death, sloth leads to the godawful degeneration of the drug user, being guilty of envy and wrath led both to become murderers and take the life of an innocent or unarmed and helpless man respectively, etc.etc.
*** Well, of course, he was probably never ''really'' guilty of Envy and was just manipulating Mills, but thats justified since the killer is a ''massive'' hypocrite.
*** Well, of course, he was probably never ''really'' guilty of Envy and was just manipulating Mills, but thats justified since the killer is a ''massive'' hypocrite.
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***I don't care how loyal the pooches are, if they're starving and there's a hundred-plus pounds of meat just laying there...
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*** Family dogs are very loyal, and so the above implications are quite unlikely indeed.
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* The killer should have known that his goal to kill seven practitioners of the deadly sins was flawed. [[spoiler: One innocent victim is killed, and his chosen personification of Wrath will assuredly not be killed - at worst, he'd likely be given a minimal sentence for a crime of passion.]] Why would he set up such a statement when the statement was ultimately flawed?
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* The killer should have known that his goal to kill seven practitioners of the deadly sins was flawed. [[spoiler: One innocent victim is killed, and his chosen personification of Wrath will assuredly not be killed - at worst, he'd likely be given a minimal sentence for a crime of passion.]] Why would he set up such a statement when the statement was ultimately flawed?flawed?
** Who said that all the people committing the sins had to die, or that only those people would be harmed? That's a fault assumption on your part. It was a moral sermon on the failings of the people under the influence of each sin and a statement showing the consequences of those sins. Gluttony leads to morbid obesity/eating to death, sloth leads to the godawful degeneration of the drug user, being guilty of envy and wrath led both to become murderers and take the life of an innocent or unarmed and helpless man respectively, etc.
** Who said that all the people committing the sins had to die, or that only those people would be harmed? That's a fault assumption on your part. It was a moral sermon on the failings of the people under the influence of each sin and a statement showing the consequences of those sins. Gluttony leads to morbid obesity/eating to death, sloth leads to the godawful degeneration of the drug user, being guilty of envy and wrath led both to become murderers and take the life of an innocent or unarmed and helpless man respectively, etc.
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[[AC:FridgeLogic]]
* The killer should have known that his goal to kill seven practitioners of the deadly sins was flawed. [[spoiler: One innocent victim is killed, and his chosen personification of Wrath will assuredly not be killed - at worst, he'd likely be given a minimal sentence for a crime of passion.]] Why would he set up such a statement when the statement was ultimately flawed?
