History DethroningMoment / TabletopGaming

3rd Apr '17 2:54:50 AM GoblinCipher
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* Tropers/{{Icarael}}: If one had to name ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'''s nadir (in terms of design, anyway), it would have to be ''Homelands''. While the flavor and WorldBuilding aspects of the set were well-done, and it introduced things like Legendaries and artifact creatures that are still in use today, it had a lot of things that brought it down in comparison to its successors. The set's power level was absurdly low, even by the time's standards; it introduced no new mechanics; had little synergy with itself; and had awkward design. If one were to take a lesson from it, as [[http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr97 Mark Rosewater]] has, it's that ''Magic'' lives and dies by its mechanics.

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* Tropers/{{Icarael}}: If one had to name ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'''s nadir (in terms of design, anyway), it would have to be ''Homelands''. While the flavor and WorldBuilding aspects of the set were well-done, and it introduced things like Legendaries and artifact creatures that are still in use today, it had a lot of things that brought it down in comparison to its successors. The set's power level was absurdly low, even by the time's standards; it introduced no new mechanics; had little synergy with itself; and had awkward design. If one were to take a lesson from it, as [[http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr97 Mark Rosewater]] has, it's that ''Magic'' lives and dies by its mechanics.
28th Feb '17 11:02:35 AM SorPepita
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** Glimmer: If one had to name its low point in story, the recent set Eldritch Moon makes for a good contender. Ignoring the questionable design choices behind it (creating the third white-aligned Planeswalker of the set, reintroducing an Emrakul card hilariously underpowered compared to its prior appearance, making some of the most powerful creatures of the set require two cards to play), from a story perspective we're treated to the series' Eldritch Abominations being shoehorned for no reason except to give us a Big Bad and to make the local population talk annoyingly'mrakul, the [[MilitariesAreUseless local angelic protectors being totally helpless and distraught in the face of invaders]]... ''again'', and a genocidal Nahiri getting off scot-free after trying to destroy an entire plane for petty revenge ("only" managing to destroy just a couple of provinces and countless lives in the meantime) and somehow defeating one of the series' most powerful characters and imprisoning him in stone. You'd think that Arlinn, Chandra, or Gideon could have just taken time away from doing nothing to thrash her, since, besides Sorin, she managed to peeve off at least ''7'' other demi-god-like beings with Emrakul's emergance.

to:

** Glimmer: If one had to name its low point in story, the recent set Eldritch Moon makes for a good contender. Ignoring the questionable design choices behind it (creating the third white-aligned Planeswalker of the set, reintroducing an Emrakul card hilariously underpowered compared to its prior appearance, making some of the most powerful creatures of the set require two cards to play), from a story perspective we're treated to the series' Eldritch Abominations being shoehorned for no reason except to give us a Big Bad (Emrakul) and to make the local population talk annoyingly'mrakul, annoyingly, the [[MilitariesAreUseless local angelic protectors being totally helpless and distraught in the face of invaders]]... ''again'', and a genocidal Nahiri getting off scot-free after trying to destroy an entire plane for petty revenge ("only" managing to destroy just a couple of provinces and countless lives in the meantime) and somehow defeating one of the series' most powerful characters and imprisoning him in stone. You'd think that Arlinn, Chandra, or Gideon could have just taken time away from doing nothing to thrash her, since, besides Sorin, she managed to peeve off at least ''7'' other demi-god-like beings with Emrakul's emergance.emergence.
28th Feb '17 10:56:08 AM SorPepita
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** justanid: A bit of trivia: ''Faction War'' was published in January 1998, after TSR was acquired by Creator/WizardsOfTheCoast in the previous year. It was written during TSR's financial troubles and was possibly intended to TrashTheSet. Instead, Sigil only shows up a few times in [=WotC's=] 3rd edition ''D&D''. Nevermind Creator/{{Hasbro}}'s [[http://bitey.com/lady-of-pain/ 4th edition.]] For me, the biggest [=DMoS=] is in the 2nd edition, 2000 adventure ''Die Vecna Die!'' [[spoiler:At the climax Vecna (from ''TabletopGame/{{Greyhawk}}'') actually sets foot in Sigil, getting past the Lady of Pain's previously impervious defenses, which is nowhere near as bad as her new portrayal as a generic NPC.]] Oh and [[OnlyICanKillHim only the heroes]] can save the day because Vecna has JokerImmunity.

to:

** justanid: A bit of trivia: ''Faction War'' was published in January 1998, after TSR was acquired by Creator/WizardsOfTheCoast in the previous year. It was written during TSR's financial troubles and was possibly intended to TrashTheSet. Instead, Sigil only shows up a few times in [=WotC's=] 3rd edition ''D&D''. Nevermind Creator/{{Hasbro}}'s [[http://bitey.com/lady-of-pain/ 4th edition.]] For me, the biggest [=DMoS=] is in the 2nd edition, 2000 adventure ''Die Vecna Die!'' [[spoiler:At the climax Vecna (from ''TabletopGame/{{Greyhawk}}'') actually sets foot in Sigil, getting past the Lady of Pain's previously impervious defenses, which is nowhere near as bad as her new portrayal as a generic NPC.]] Oh Oh, and [[OnlyICanKillHim only the heroes]] can save the day because Vecna has JokerImmunity.
28th Feb '17 10:54:17 AM SorPepita
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* MrInsecure: In-canon metaplots tend to devolve into flame wars and {{Broken Base}}s on a good day, but special mention must be given out to [[TabletopGame/WorldOfDarkness Samuel Haight]], all time king of [[{{Munchkin}} template-stacking bullcrap]] and [[CreatorsPet authorial favoritism.]] While he started with a fairly interesting premise- a mortal man from a clan of werewolves seeks out means to steal their power out of a combination of jealousy and spite- the Dethroning came when writers started granting him more and more powers from different corners of the World of Darkness. By the time the writers realized how unpopular he was, he had already become one of the most powerful people in the setting, with the powers of [[TabletopGame/WerewolfTheApocalypse werewolves,]] [[TabletopGame/MageTheAscension mages,]] [[TabletopGame/ChangelingTheDreaming kinfolk,]] and [[TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade an independent ghoul,]] all at once. Fortunately, this problem was solved when he tried to take on a [[EldritchAbomination Methuselah]] by himself, which resulted in him getting killed and subsequently [[TabletopGame/WraithTheOblivion soulforged]] [[FateWorseThanDeath into]] [[CrowningMomentOfFunny an ashtray.]]
28th Feb '17 10:49:25 AM SorPepita
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* Blackjack254: The Introduction of 6:5 Blackjack (in which A Blackjack will only net you $12 on a $10 bet instead of $15). Back when it was first introduced in the early 2000s, it was only used on Single Deck games, where it's a little bit acceptable but now, some casinos in Las Vegas Have 6:5 Payouts entirely, regardless of deck count or minimum bet. apparently they don't know if people don't lose so quickly, they'll have more fun even if they do end up losing and will want to come back. The low house edge on standard 3:2 Blackjack is what makes it so appealing in the first place.

to:

* Blackjack254: The Introduction of 6:5 Blackjack (in which A a Blackjack will only net you $12 on a $10 bet instead of $15). Back when it was first introduced in the early 2000s, it was only used on Single Deck games, where it's a little bit acceptable acceptable, but now, now some casinos in Las Vegas Have have 6:5 Payouts entirely, regardless of deck count or minimum bet. apparently Apparently they don't know if people don't lose so quickly, they'll have more fun even if they do end up losing and will want to come back. The low house edge on standard 3:2 Blackjack is what makes it so appealing in the first place.



* MiriOhki: [[TabletopGame/BattleTech Katherine Steiner-Davion]] was a frustrating enough character as it was. Much of her storylines were one MoralEventHorizon after another, starting with her assassinating her mother, and doing her best to kill or frame just about the entire rest of her family. So she's heinous. But that isn't the problem. She prosecutes a seven year long Civil War and commits a multitude of crimes, not only against [=FedCom=] citizens, but killing the daughter of the ruler of an uninvolved nation, just because she was dating Katherine's brother and the leader of the enemy forces. She finally loses the battle and is arrested. You would think there would be people lining up to lynch her throughout three fifths of the Inner Sphere. Then suddenly, Vlad Ward of the crusader Wolves swoops in, and rattles his saber, saying that if they didn't surrender Katherine to him, the Wolves would invade. It was mostly a bluff but nobody even considered trying to call him on it. Now to be fair, he didn't come in quite as a GiantSpaceFleaOutOfNowhere, as he had secret dealings with her that he wouldn't want to come out, but her KarmaHoudini status is especially frustrating.

to:

* MiriOhki: [[TabletopGame/BattleTech Katherine Steiner-Davion]] was a frustrating enough character as it was. Much of her storylines were one MoralEventHorizon after another, starting with her assassinating her mother, and doing her best to kill or frame just about the entire rest of her family. So she's heinous. But that isn't the problem. She prosecutes a seven year long Civil War and commits a multitude of crimes, not only against [=FedCom=] citizens, but killing the daughter of the ruler of an uninvolved nation, just because she was dating Katherine's brother and the leader of the enemy forces. She finally loses the battle and is arrested. You would think there would be people lining up to lynch her throughout three fifths of the Inner Sphere. Then suddenly, Vlad Ward of the crusader Wolves swoops in, in and rattles his saber, saying that if they didn't surrender Katherine to him, the Wolves would invade. It was mostly a bluff but nobody even considered trying to call him on it. Now to be fair, he didn't come in quite as a GiantSpaceFleaOutOfNowhere, as he had secret dealings with her that he wouldn't want to come out, but her KarmaHoudini status is especially frustrating.
7th Jan '17 10:10:01 AM justanid
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** justanid: ''Faction War'' was published in January 1998, after TSR was acquired by Creator/WizardsOfTheCoast in the previous year. It was written during TSR's financial troubles and was possibly intended to TrashTheSet. Instead, Sigil only ever shows up in a couple times in [=WotC's=] 3rd edition ''D&D''. Nevermind Creator/{{Hasbro}}'s [[http://bitey.com/lady-of-pain/ 4th edition.]] For me, the [=DMoS=] is at the end of the 2nd edition, 2000 adventure ''Die Vecna, Die!'' [[spoiler: when Vecna (from ''TabletopGame/{{Greyhawk}}'') actually sets foot in Sigil, getting past the Lady of Pain's previously impervious defenses, which is nowhere near as bad as her new portrayal as a generic NPC.]] Oh and [[OnlyICanKillHim only the heroes]] can save the day because Vecna has JokerImmunity.

to:

** justanid: A bit of trivia: ''Faction War'' was published in January 1998, after TSR was acquired by Creator/WizardsOfTheCoast in the previous year. It was written during TSR's financial troubles and was possibly intended to TrashTheSet. Instead, Sigil only ever shows up in a couple few times in [=WotC's=] 3rd edition ''D&D''. Nevermind Creator/{{Hasbro}}'s [[http://bitey.com/lady-of-pain/ 4th edition.]] For me, the biggest [=DMoS=] is at the end of in the 2nd edition, 2000 adventure ''Die Vecna, Vecna Die!'' [[spoiler: when [[spoiler:At the climax Vecna (from ''TabletopGame/{{Greyhawk}}'') actually sets foot in Sigil, getting past the Lady of Pain's previously impervious defenses, which is nowhere near as bad as her new portrayal as a generic NPC.]] Oh and [[OnlyICanKillHim only the heroes]] can save the day because Vecna has JokerImmunity.
7th Jan '17 9:58:33 AM justanid
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Added DiffLines:

** justanid: ''Faction War'' was published in January 1998, after TSR was acquired by Creator/WizardsOfTheCoast in the previous year. It was written during TSR's financial troubles and was possibly intended to TrashTheSet. Instead, Sigil only ever shows up in a couple times in [=WotC's=] 3rd edition ''D&D''. Nevermind Creator/{{Hasbro}}'s [[http://bitey.com/lady-of-pain/ 4th edition.]] For me, the [=DMoS=] is at the end of the 2nd edition, 2000 adventure ''Die Vecna, Die!'' [[spoiler: when Vecna (from ''TabletopGame/{{Greyhawk}}'') actually sets foot in Sigil, getting past the Lady of Pain's previously impervious defenses, which is nowhere near as bad as her new portrayal as a generic NPC.]] Oh and [[OnlyICanKillHim only the heroes]] can save the day because Vecna has JokerImmunity.
10th Aug '16 11:34:53 AM Glimmer
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to:

** Glimmer: If one had to name its low point in story, the recent set Eldritch Moon makes for a good contender. Ignoring the questionable design choices behind it (creating the third white-aligned Planeswalker of the set, reintroducing an Emrakul card hilariously underpowered compared to its prior appearance, making some of the most powerful creatures of the set require two cards to play), from a story perspective we're treated to the series' Eldritch Abominations being shoehorned for no reason except to give us a Big Bad and to make the local population talk annoyingly'mrakul, the [[MilitariesAreUseless local angelic protectors being totally helpless and distraught in the face of invaders]]... ''again'', and a genocidal Nahiri getting off scot-free after trying to destroy an entire plane for petty revenge ("only" managing to destroy just a couple of provinces and countless lives in the meantime) and somehow defeating one of the series' most powerful characters and imprisoning him in stone. You'd think that Arlinn, Chandra, or Gideon could have just taken time away from doing nothing to thrash her, since, besides Sorin, she managed to peeve off at least ''7'' other demi-god-like beings with Emrakul's emergance.
*** And the worst part? [[LethalJokeCharacter No new Tibalt!]]
15th Jun '16 8:30:56 AM Berrenta
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13th May '16 10:14:01 AM MagBas
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* MiriOhki: [[TabletopGame/BattleTech Katherine Steiner-Davion]] was a frustrating enough character as it was. Much of her storylines were one MoralEventHorizon after another, starting with her assassinating her mother, and doing her best to kill or frame just about the entire rest of her family. So she's heinous. But that isn't the problem. She prosecutes a seven year long Civil War and commits a multitude of crimes, not only against [=FedCom=] citizens, but killing the daughter of the ruler of an uninvolved nation, just because she was dating Katherine's brother and the leader of the enemy forces. She finally loses the battle and is arrested. You would think there would be people lining up to lynch her throughout three fifths of the Inner Sphere. Then suddenly, Vlad Ward of the crusader Wolves swoops in, and rattles his saber, saying that if they didn't surrender Katherine to him, the Wolves would invade. It was mostly a bluff but nobody even considered trying to call him on it. Now to be fair, he didn't come in quite as a GiantSpaceFleaOutOfNowhere, as he had secret dealings with her that he wouldn't want to come out, but her KarmaHoudini status is especially frustrating. It also leads to a later DMOS that calls out some serious FridgeLogic. One of the biggest issues she had in consolidating power in the Federated Commonwealth (Eventually leading her to have the Lyran half secede) is that the [=FedCom=] constitution required the First Prince (gender-neutral title in this case) to have military service. Katherine had nothing but contempt for the military except as pawns for her to use, and her refusal of military service was her main disqualifier for legitimate rule in the Federated Commonwealth. The FridgeLogic fuelling her second DMOS is that she was a prisoner of the Clans. A military society. The only way she could ever advance to power among them was to prove herself a worthy warrior, and fight her way up the ranks. So you'd think she'd be neutralized. Right? No. Somehow, she managed to completely delete all of her characterization in order to allow her to continue to not only function in Clan society, but allowed her to have a child, from both her and [[{{Squick}} her brother's stolen genes]]... the same brother she fought a seven year war against?

to:

* MiriOhki: [[TabletopGame/BattleTech Katherine Steiner-Davion]] was a frustrating enough character as it was. Much of her storylines were one MoralEventHorizon after another, starting with her assassinating her mother, and doing her best to kill or frame just about the entire rest of her family. So she's heinous. But that isn't the problem. She prosecutes a seven year long Civil War and commits a multitude of crimes, not only against [=FedCom=] citizens, but killing the daughter of the ruler of an uninvolved nation, just because she was dating Katherine's brother and the leader of the enemy forces. She finally loses the battle and is arrested. You would think there would be people lining up to lynch her throughout three fifths of the Inner Sphere. Then suddenly, Vlad Ward of the crusader Wolves swoops in, and rattles his saber, saying that if they didn't surrender Katherine to him, the Wolves would invade. It was mostly a bluff but nobody even considered trying to call him on it. Now to be fair, he didn't come in quite as a GiantSpaceFleaOutOfNowhere, as he had secret dealings with her that he wouldn't want to come out, but her KarmaHoudini status is especially frustrating. It also leads to a later DMOS that calls out some serious FridgeLogic. One of the biggest issues she had in consolidating power in the Federated Commonwealth (Eventually leading her to have the Lyran half secede) is that the [=FedCom=] constitution required the First Prince (gender-neutral title in this case) to have military service. Katherine had nothing but contempt for the military except as pawns for her to use, and her refusal of military service was her main disqualifier for legitimate rule in the Federated Commonwealth. The FridgeLogic fuelling her second DMOS is that she was a prisoner of the Clans. A military society. The only way she could ever advance to power among them was to prove herself a worthy warrior, and fight her way up the ranks. So you'd think she'd be neutralized. Right? No. Somehow, she managed to completely delete all of her characterization in order to allow her to continue to not only function in Clan society, but allowed her to have a child, from both her and [[{{Squick}} her brother's stolen genes]]... the same brother she fought a seven year war against?
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