History DeconstructedTrope / ASongOfIceAndFire

25th May '16 3:53:59 AM damus2300
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* ButForMeItWasTuesday: Tywin Lannister is so used to doing unspeakably terrible things that he doesn't remember them all. His LackOfEmpathy makes him unwilling to meet anyone halfway or have some understanding of those who suffer because of his decisions. [[spoiler: The combination of both gets him killed.]]
19th May '16 9:32:45 PM damus2300
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* ElectiveMonarchy: The Ironborn have a practice of electing their monarchy, which is brought back by Aeron Damphair to ensure his brother Victarion Greyjoy becomes ruler instead of his monstrous brother Euron. However, Euron is able to use his charming qualities and a RousingSpeech to get elected, even though he is, even by the standards of the Iron Islands, an incredibly villainous figure.

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* ElectiveMonarchy: The Ironborn have a practice of electing their monarchy, which is brought back by Aeron Damphair to ensure his brother Victarion Greyjoy becomes ruler instead of his monstrous brother Euron. However, Euron is able to use his charming qualities and a RousingSpeech to get elected, even though he is, even by the standards of the Iron Islands, an incredibly villainous figure. The kingsmoot itself is impractical because anyone who wants to be king needs to abandon their conquests and attend in person. Victarion Greyjoy lost Moat Cailin to House Bolton because of this.
16th May '16 10:07:31 PM NightShade96
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* ChronicBackstabbingDisorder: [[spoiler:Walder Frey didn't bring his troops when ordered to by his liege lord, only showing up after the battle had been won, which to many signifies disloyalty. For this he became known as the Late Lord Frey and his family's reputation took at hit. When the Freys betray Robb at the Red Wedding they figured it would be for the best, as they had a bunch of people to stand by them. But because everyone knows they're involved, it taints their reputation basically beyond repair, to the point where even their allies are taking swipes at them. And its not just their reputation at stake -- some members of House Frey are in fact being ''murdered'' because their betrayal broke one of the most fundamental elements of pre-modern society: [[SacredHospitality guest right]]. The effect extends far beyond the Twins; now, ''no one'' can trust ''anyone'' not to murder them at dinner. And their betrayal means the riverlanders and Northerners despise them and won't willingly help them.]]
* ChronicHeroSyndrome: Dany could not bear the oppression and suffering of the slaves in Slaver's Bay, so she decided to liberate them, even though it diverted her from her aim of claiming the Iron Throne. The result? [[spoiler:Astapor is taken over by a new king and then depopulated by war, famine, and plague, Yunkai reverts to business as usual as soon as she leaves, and Meereen descends into a political and economic quagmire. Even then, she refuses to let go of her need to help her "children," to the point where it starts to look less like idealism and more like a neurotic compulsion.]] Inevitably, the scheming characters are catching wise; for instance, [[spoiler:Tyrion]] points out (though it's a tad ambiguous as to how serious he was) that the only surefire way to force Dany into conquering Westeros is to create a situation where she'll need to swoop in on her dragons and save the day--[[spoiler:in this case, having her young nephew attempt a land invasion in which he cannot possibly be successful without her]].

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* ChronicBackstabbingDisorder: [[spoiler:Walder Walder Frey didn't bring his troops when ordered to by his liege lord, only showing up after the battle had been won, which to many signifies disloyalty. For this he became known as the Late Lord Frey and his family's reputation took at hit. When [[spoiler:When the Freys betray Robb at the Red Wedding they figured it would be for the best, as they had a bunch of people to stand by them. But because everyone knows they're involved, it taints their reputation basically beyond repair, to the point where even their allies ''allies'' are taking swipes at them. And its it's not just their reputation at stake -- some members of House Frey are in fact being ''murdered'' because their betrayal broke one of the most fundamental elements of pre-modern society: [[SacredHospitality guest right]]. The effect extends far beyond the Twins; now, ''no one'' can trust ''anyone'' not to murder them at dinner. And dinner, and their betrayal means that the riverlanders and Northerners despise them and won't willingly help them.]]
* ChronicHeroSyndrome: Dany could not bear the oppression and suffering of the slaves in Slaver's Bay, so she decided to liberate them, even though it diverted her from her aim of claiming the Iron Throne. The result? [[spoiler:Astapor is taken over by a new king and then depopulated by war, famine, and plague, Yunkai reverts to business as usual as soon as she leaves, and Meereen descends into a political and economic quagmire. Even then, she refuses to let go of her need to help her "children," to the point where it starts to look less like idealism and more like a neurotic compulsion.]] Inevitably, the scheming characters are catching wise; for instance, [[spoiler:Tyrion]] points out (though it's a tad ambiguous as to how serious he was) that the only surefire way to force Dany into conquering Westeros is to create a situation where she'll need to swoop in on her dragons and save the day--[[spoiler:in day -- [[spoiler:in this case, having her young nephew attempt a land invasion in which he cannot possibly be successful without her]].



* CoolChair: The Iron Throne [[ThroneMadeOfX made from the thousand swords of Aegon the Conqueror's enemies]] is incredibly uncomfortable and is rumored to have killed Aegon's son Maegor. Of course, this is the entire point of the Iron Throne: to constantly remind any king that supreme power is supremely dangerous and not a thing to be trifled with.

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* CoolChair: The Iron Throne [[ThroneMadeOfX made from the thousand swords of Aegon the Conqueror's enemies]] is incredibly uncomfortable and is rumored to have killed Aegon's son Maegor. Of course, this is the entire point of the Iron Throne: to constantly remind any king that supreme power is supremely dangerous and is not a thing to be trifled with.



* DefeatMeansFriendship: The concept of fealty is questioned time and again since the bannermen of most of the great houses started as their rivals. Not all remain loyal despite centuries of servitude and it's possible [[TheStarscream they might rebel if the conditions are right]].

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* DefeatMeansFriendship: The concept of fealty is questioned time and again since the bannermen of most of the great houses started as their rivals. Not all remain loyal despite centuries of servitude and it's possible that [[TheStarscream they might rebel if the conditions are right]].



* DyingMomentOfAwesome: One minor character in ''A Dance With Dragons'' suggests that focusing on heroism in death can lead to a lack of respect for life--and the behaviour of many Westerosi knights seems to bear this criticism out. Despite the belief that kings, lords, and warriors should die in a heroic or dignified manner, they are not so great that they can't die pointless, humiliating deaths like the peasants they care so little about.

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* DyingMomentOfAwesome: One minor character in ''A Dance With Dragons'' suggests that focusing on heroism in death can lead to a lack of respect for life--and life -- and the behaviour of many Westerosi knights seems to bear this criticism out. Despite the belief that kings, lords, and warriors should die in a heroic or dignified manner, they are not so great that they can't die pointless, humiliating deaths like the peasants they care so little about.



* ElectiveMonarchy: The Ironborn have a practice of electing their monarchy which is brought back by Aeron Damphair to ensure his brother Victarion Greyjoy becomes ruler instead of his monstrous brother Euron. However, Euron is able to use his charming qualities and a rousing speech to get elected in, even though he is, even by the standards of the Iron Islands, an incredibly villainous figure.

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* ElectiveMonarchy: The Ironborn have a practice of electing their monarchy monarchy, which is brought back by Aeron Damphair to ensure his brother Victarion Greyjoy becomes ruler instead of his monstrous brother Euron. However, Euron is able to use his charming qualities and a rousing speech RousingSpeech to get elected in, elected, even though he is, even by the standards of the Iron Islands, an incredibly villainous figure.



** Ramsay Snow delights in indulging his sadistic pleasures, even hunting women, raping and flaying them. His father Roose Bolton considers him a problem, as the Bolton regime is already unstable and Ramsay is not helping them gain support. Meanwhile Ramsay's brutal abuse of his wife [[spoiler:a pretender daughter of Ned Stark used to legitimize Bolton rule of Winterfell, further loses support. Someone even says that though Roose is cruel they can deal with him, but Ramsay is a monster.]]

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** Ramsay Snow delights in indulging his sadistic pleasures, even hunting women, raping and flaying them. His father Roose Bolton considers him a problem, as the Bolton regime is already unstable and Ramsay is not helping them gain support. Meanwhile Ramsay's brutal abuse of his wife wife, [[spoiler:a pretender daughter of Ned Stark used to legitimize Bolton rule of Winterfell, further loses support. Someone even says that though Roose is cruel they can deal with him, but Ramsay is a monster.]]
15th May '16 6:21:03 PM NightShade96
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* PragmaticVillainy: While this series warns how playing too fairly can cause one to be outmaneuvered, playing too dirty can make one look too dishonest. [[spoiler: Just ask the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons after the Red Wedding]].



* ShootTheDog: While this series warns how playing too fairly can cause one to be outmaneuvered, playing too dirty can make one look too dishonest. [[spoiler: Just ask the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons after the Red Wedding]].
14th May '16 9:48:58 PM NightShade96
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[[folder: Y-Z]]

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14th May '16 9:48:01 PM NightShade96
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** Renly and Stannis are useful contrasts. Renly openly cultivates the image of a benevolent prince, a man who loves people through displays of superficial charm and generosity and who wants to rule through love despite the fact that his claim rests on a military alliance and superior numbers and his actions would have set a terrible precedent for the succession system. Stannis is disliked and feared for being a duty bound killjoy obsessed with justice, old grudges and fierce discipline, traits that lead to him to be far more meritocratic than Renly's simplistic "common" touch. In the end, Stannis commands loyalty through his devotion to duty, for being the only king to realize that a king has to protect his people for them to accept him as a king, actions which cause him short term defeats but keeps him alive in the long run and leads him to command genuine loyalty from the likes of Ser Davos and Melisandre and his fellow soldiers; because despite not being loved and feared by some, he is never hated and commands genuine respect from the likes of Jon Snow who does not like him personally but admires him for his BrutalHonesty and reserve.

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** Renly and Stannis are useful contrasts. Renly openly cultivates the image of a benevolent prince, a man who loves people through displays of superficial charm and generosity and who wants to rule through love despite the fact that his claim rests on a military alliance and superior numbers and his actions would have set a terrible precedent for the succession system. Stannis is disliked and feared for being a duty bound killjoy obsessed with justice, old grudges and fierce discipline, traits that lead to him to be far more meritocratic than Renly's simplistic "common" touch. In the end, Stannis commands loyalty through his devotion to duty, for being the only king to realize that a king has to protect his people for them to accept him as a king, actions which cause him short term defeats but keeps keep him alive in the long run and leads him to command genuine loyalty from the likes of Ser Davos and Melisandre and his fellow soldiers; soldiers, because despite not being loved and feared by some, he is never hated and commands genuine respect from the likes of Jon Snow Snow, who does do not like him personally but admires admire him for his BrutalHonesty and reserve.



** The Starks rule through love and friendship among their allies and supporters, and keep the North safe to such an extent that women could walk through the roads in the North without being afraid of rape. Their refusal to submit to callow brutality allows [[spoiler:underhanded enemies like the Boltons]] to endure and plot future betrayal, but it also makes it very hard for them to be replaced since their vassals and the people prefer the lifestyle they enjoyed under the Starks to any future promised by Roose and Ramsay Bolton.

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** The Starks rule through love and friendship among their allies and supporters, and keep the North safe to such an extent that women could walk through the roads in the North without being afraid of rape. Their refusal to submit to callow brutality allows [[spoiler:underhanded enemies like the Boltons]] to endure and plot future betrayal, but it also makes it very hard for them to be replaced since their vassals and the people prefer the lifestyle they enjoyed under the Starks to any future promised by Roose [[spoiler:Roose and Ramsay Bolton.Bolton]].



* TheMagicComesBack: Most fantasy portrays the return of magic as heralding the return of a golden age. Here, its making an already bad situation worse. Because of the loss of knowledge over time, very few people can understand, control, or protect against this powerful, and in many cases ''dangerous'', force. Most people don't even believe that magic still exists, making them terribly unprepared for what's to come. No wonder [[spoiler:the Maesters of the Citadel are trying to replace it with science.]]

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* TheMagicComesBack: Most fantasy portrays the return of magic as heralding the return of a golden age. Here, its it's making an already bad situation worse. Because of the loss of knowledge over time, very few people can understand, control, or protect against this powerful, and in many cases ''dangerous'', force. Most people don't even believe that magic still exists, making them terribly unprepared for what's to come. No wonder [[spoiler:the Maesters of the Citadel are trying to replace it with science.]]



** This mentality imposes stricter norms of propriety for women over men and is essentially patriarchal. King Robert can father bastards in double digits with women across Westeros and he would face no rebuke, but Cersei, equally guilty of adultery, [[spoiler:faces rituals of humiliation and submitted to a ShamefulStrip made to walk naked across King's Landing in broad daylight in a ritual meant "to break her pride."]] Likewise, Aegon the Unworthy apparently invoked this trope to cast doubt on the paternity of Daeron II over that of Bastard Pretender Daemon Blackfyre, because the latter's battle prowess appealed to his vanity far more than the scholarly Daeron ever did. And when Princess Rhaenyra tried to claim the Iron Throne, part of the reason she was opposed is because it was believed her three oldest sons were bastards.

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** This mentality imposes stricter norms of propriety for women over men and is essentially patriarchal. King Robert can father bastards in the double digits with women across Westeros and he would face no rebuke, but Cersei, equally guilty of adultery, [[spoiler:faces rituals of humiliation and submitted to a ShamefulStrip made to walk naked across King's Landing in broad daylight in a ritual meant "to break her pride."]] Likewise, Aegon the Unworthy apparently invoked this trope to cast doubt on the paternity of Daeron II over that of Bastard Pretender Daemon Blackfyre, because the latter's battle prowess appealed to his vanity far more than the scholarly Daeron ever did. And did, and when Princess Rhaenyra tried to claim the Iron Throne, part of the reason she was opposed is because it was believed her three oldest sons were bastards.



** Many lords aren't concerned with the death toll among smallfolk except in how it affects them (e.g. how many are left to give orders to); only the deaths of the famous and powerful inspire strong reactions. As a result, wars are started without a single thought to how it will affect the common people. Even the "good" guys carelessly ruin countless lives with this mentality. Tired of their lords constantly brushing off their suffering, the smallfolk eventually revolt and take over King's Landing in hopes of being able to help themselves, since no one else is going to help them.
** Jeyne Poole is a completely ordinary young girl who doesn't come from a powerful family. [[spoiler: Because she's just one of thousands of common girls, no one bats an eyelash when she's forced to become a prostitute, impersonate Arya Stark, and marry Ramsay Bolton. All the people trying to save her are only doing so because they think she's someone else, someone important; with the exception of Theon, who knows exactly what it is like to be dehumanized. Jeyne's ordeal stands in sharp contrast to Sansa's in that both girls suffer in similar ways, but Sansa doesn't need to pretend to be someone else for people to care what happens to her]]. In essence, Jeyne's story serves as a microcosm of the reality of being a non-highborn girl in Westeros and how their lives are still worth something even if no one else thinks so.

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** Many lords aren't concerned with the death toll among smallfolk except in how it affects them (e.g. how many are left to give orders to); only to). Only the deaths of the famous and powerful inspire strong reactions. As a result, wars are started without a single thought to how it will affect the common people. Even the "good" guys carelessly ruin countless lives with this mentality. Tired of their lords constantly brushing off their suffering, the smallfolk eventually revolt and take over King's Landing in hopes of being able to help themselves, since no one else is going to help them.
** Jeyne Poole is a completely ordinary young girl who doesn't come from a powerful family. [[spoiler: Because [[spoiler:Because she's just one of thousands of common girls, no one bats an eyelash when she's forced to become a prostitute, impersonate Arya Stark, and marry Ramsay Bolton. All the people trying to save her are only doing so because they think she's someone else, someone important; important, with the exception of Theon, who knows exactly what it is like to be dehumanized. Jeyne's ordeal stands in sharp contrast to Sansa's in that both girls suffer in similar ways, but Sansa doesn't need to pretend to be someone else for people to care what happens to her]]. In essence, Jeyne's story serves as a microcosm of the reality of being a non-highborn girl in Westeros and how their lives are still worth something even if no one else thinks so.



** Ramsay Bolton is the son of a noble father and despite being raised by peasants, shares the traits of his father. Through his skills, Ramsay improves upon his situation and is ultimately recognized as the son and heir of his noble father. Ramsay is also one of the most vile and evil characters in the series (which is saying something), and he is like his father in being sadistically evil (although Roose is a lot better at hiding it), and got himself into the position of heir by murdering his trueborn brother. Interesting, Ramsay himself is apparently somewhat WrongGenreSavvy in that according to Roose, Ramsay thinks Roose and his mother had a great romance that transcended their classes, whereas in actuality, Roose [[DroitDuSeigneur raped her]].

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** Ramsay Bolton is the son of a noble father and despite being raised by peasants, shares the traits of his father. Through his skills, Ramsay improves upon his situation and is ultimately recognized as the son and heir of his noble father. Ramsay is also one of the most vile and evil characters in the series (which is saying something), and he is like his father in being sadistically evil (although Roose is a lot better at hiding it), and got himself into the position of heir by murdering his trueborn brother. Interesting, Interestingly, Ramsay himself is apparently somewhat WrongGenreSavvy in that according to Roose, Ramsay thinks Roose and his mother had a great romance that transcended their classes, whereas in actuality, Roose [[DroitDuSeigneur raped her]].



** Robert Baratheon sires a lot of illegitimate kids only to abandon them. [[spoiler: Most of them are later killed by his widow because of the threat they might pose to her children]].

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** Robert Baratheon sires a lot of illegitimate kids only to abandon them. [[spoiler: Most [[spoiler:Most of them are later killed by his widow because of the threat they might pose to her children]].



** In addition, the Targaryens themselves overthrew the previous rightful kings, including King Torrhen Stark, whose direct descendent Robb Stark is proclaimed King in the North when his bannermen decide to re-establish their independence. After his defeat, their former vassal [[spoiler: Wyman Manderly]] no longer cares who the rightful king is, but agrees to submit to King [[spoiler: Stannis]] so long as a Stark remains his liege lord.

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** In addition, the Targaryens themselves overthrew the previous rightful kings, including King Torrhen Stark, whose direct descendent Robb Stark is proclaimed King in the North when his bannermen decide to re-establish their independence. After his defeat, their former vassal [[spoiler: Wyman [[spoiler:Wyman Manderly]] no longer cares who the rightful king is, but agrees to submit to King [[spoiler: Stannis]] [[spoiler:Stannis]] so long as a Stark remains his liege lord.



** Daenerys, in particular, knows very little about the land she plans to rule because she was too busy just trying to survive to brush up on Westeros' history and politics. She even didn't know the sigil of her own sister-in-law's family. She believes the people are eagerly awaiting her arrival when in reality many of them don't know or care that she's still alive. Not to mention that when/if she returns to Westeros, it will be extremely difficult to tell potential allies from enemies.

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** Daenerys, in particular, knows very little about the land she plans to rule because she was too busy just trying to survive to brush up on Westeros' history and politics. She even didn't even know the sigil of her own sister-in-law's family. She believes the people are eagerly awaiting her arrival when in reality many of them don't know or care that she's still alive. Not to mention that when/if she returns to Westeros, it will be extremely difficult to tell potential allies from enemies.



* SacredHospitality: Guest Right is the one tradition everyone in Westeros and beyond values but that doesn't mean some (like [[spoiler: Mance Rayder incognito in Winterfell]]) won't exploit it to their advantage. Others [[spoiler:like the Manderlys]] find loopholes so they can break it without coming off the aggressor. [[spoiler:The Red Wedding]] orchestrated by the Freys, Roose Bolton and approved by the Lannisters is the biggest breach of the right yet it ends the War of the Five Kings in one fell swoop. But it also causes a downward moral spiral for the rest of the realm. Now no one feels safe having strangers in their homes.

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* SacredHospitality: Guest Right is the one tradition everyone in Westeros and beyond values but that doesn't mean some (like [[spoiler: Mance [[spoiler:Mance Rayder incognito in Winterfell]]) won't exploit it to their advantage. Others [[spoiler:like the Manderlys]] find loopholes so they can break it without coming off as the aggressor. aggressors. [[spoiler:The Red Wedding]] orchestrated by the Freys, Roose Bolton and approved by the Lannisters is the biggest breach of the right yet it ends the War of the Five Kings in one fell swoop. But swoop, but it also causes a downward moral spiral for the rest of the realm. Now no one feels safe having strangers in their homes.



** Sansa develops this trait as a coping method for all the abuse and manipulation she suffered. She wears her courtesy like armor but secretly engages in small defiances [[spoiler: and plots against her captors]]. Even so, her success is limited because she's still a young, inexperienced girl at the mercy of a volatile royal court.
** [[spoiler: Arya learns to use a [[FilleFatale distinctly dangerous shade of this]]. And, it's far from a happy application of the trope. It is also rather sadly ironic, considering her previous loathing of being made to act [[TheIngenue demure or girly]]. She deliberately invokes UnderestimatingBadassery to get close enough to kill Raff the Sweetling using herself as bait. And, in doing so, continues to lose her connection to her previous sense of self.]]

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** Sansa develops this trait as a coping method for all the abuse and manipulation she suffered. She wears her courtesy like armor but secretly engages in small defiances [[spoiler: and [[spoiler:and plots against her captors]]. Even so, her success is limited because she's still a young, inexperienced girl at the mercy of a volatile royal court.
** [[spoiler: Arya [[spoiler:Arya learns to use a [[FilleFatale distinctly dangerous shade of this]]. And, it's far from a happy application of the trope. It is also rather sadly ironic, considering her previous loathing of being made to act [[TheIngenue demure or girly]]. She deliberately invokes UnderestimatingBadassery to get close enough to kill Raff the Sweetling using herself as bait. And, in doing so, continues to lose her connection to her previous sense of self.]]



** The narrative also often points out that Westeros is NotSoDifferent as "smallfolk" (peasants) are considered to "belong" to whatever lord claims dominion over the land they call home, and that land can and does change hands due to conquest, marriage, or royal decree. (Westerosi's Ironborn also make thralls -- indentured servants -- of men and salt wives -- concubines -- of women they capture in battle, obviously without their consent.) Indeed, [[spoiler: Tyrion Lannister]], who becomes a slave after his ship to Yunkai is captured, notes that slaves in Essos are to some extent treated better than smallfolk in Westeros and as far as he's concerned being a peasant in Westeros is being a slave in all but name.

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** The narrative also often points out that Westeros is NotSoDifferent as "smallfolk" (peasants) are considered to "belong" to whatever lord claims dominion over the land they call home, and that land can and does change hands due to conquest, marriage, or royal decree. (Westerosi's Ironborn also make thralls -- indentured servants -- of men and salt wives -- concubines -- of women they capture in battle, obviously without their consent.) Indeed, [[spoiler: Tyrion [[spoiler:Tyrion Lannister]], who becomes a slave after his ship to Yunkai is captured, notes that slaves in Essos are to some extent treated better than smallfolk in Westeros and as far as he's concerned being a peasant in Westeros is being a slave in all but name.



* StayInTheKitchen: Because Westeros is a misogynist society, women are forced into a position of passivity, but in a martial society, passivity entails vulnerability. Women are taught that dutifully obeying the men in their lives will bring them protection, but in reality, relying on men condemns them to violence because justice and chivalry don't mean anything unless men chose to enforce them. One hedge knight claims that "a true knight is the only shield a maiden needs", but all evidence suggests that maidens would be much better off with actual shields of their own.
** Peasant women often don't have men who can really protect them, so less scrupulous men are often free to rape and beat them. Knights are sworn to protect the fairer sex, but this usually only applies to noblewoman. Yet, conversely, being a ProperLady still isn't a guarantee that a woman is really safe, even from men who are suppose to protect her. During the Battle of Blackwater, Cersei explains to Sansa that when the men protecting a city die in battle, chivalry goes out the window and all the woman inside are fair game, from the lowest whore to the queen herself. And none of them can do anything to protect themselves.

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* StayInTheKitchen: Because Westeros is a misogynist misogynistic society, women are forced into a position of passivity, but in a martial society, passivity entails vulnerability. Women are taught that dutifully obeying the men in their lives will bring them protection, but in reality, relying on men condemns them to violence because justice and chivalry don't mean anything unless men chose to enforce them. One hedge knight claims that "a true knight is the only shield a maiden needs", but all the evidence suggests that maidens would be much better off with actual shields of their own.
** Peasant women often don't have men who can really protect them, so less scrupulous men are often free to rape and beat them. Knights are sworn to protect the fairer sex, but this usually only applies to noblewoman.noblewomen. Yet, conversely, being a ProperLady still isn't a guarantee that a woman is really safe, even from men who are suppose to protect her. During the Battle of Blackwater, Cersei explains to Sansa that when the men protecting a city die in battle, chivalry goes out the window and all the woman women inside are fair game, from the lowest whore to the queen herself. And none of them can do anything to protect themselves.



** Stannis favors assassinating enemy leaders using magic but killing Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy and Joffrey doesn't end the war or even weaken his enemies. They just clear the way for someone else more dangerous (Roose Bolton, Euron Greyjoy, and The Faith Militant).

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** Stannis favors assassinating enemy leaders using magic but killing Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy and Joffrey doesn't end the war or even weaken his enemies. They just clear the way for someone else more dangerous (Roose Bolton, Euron Greyjoy, and The the Faith Militant).



** Seen as a sure way of deciding who is right and who is wrong because the gods favor the winner. Two of the three we've seen in the main books have given false verdicts. The other one acquitted an innocent man, but the victory was won by using [[TheCombatPragmatist dishonourable tactics]] (though the result was respected anyway).
** The Trial of Seven, an old tradition seen in "The Hedge Knight", pits two teams of seven [[CombatByChampion champions]] against each other in a mini-battle. Dunk is acquitted, but feels incredibly guilty [[spoiler:that some of the men who fought for him died -- particularly since one of them was TheWisePrince and would in Dunk's opinion have made a great king when his time came.]]

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** Seen as a sure way of deciding who is right and who is wrong because the gods favor the winner. Two of the three we've seen in the main books have given false verdicts. The other one acquitted an innocent man, but the victory was won by using [[TheCombatPragmatist [[CombatPragmatist dishonourable tactics]] (though the result was respected anyway).
** The Trial of Seven, an old tradition seen in "The Hedge Knight", pits two teams of seven [[CombatByChampion champions]] against each other in a mini-battle. Dunk is acquitted, but feels incredibly guilty [[spoiler:that some of the men who fought for him died -- died, particularly since one of them was TheWisePrince and would in Dunk's opinion have made a great king when his time came.]]
14th May '16 9:22:47 PM NightShade96
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* DavidVersusGoliath: Deconstructed both ways with Ser Gregor vs. Prince Oberyn. Gregor's size and strength count for little against an experienced warrior who knows how to deal with enemies with his advantages. [[spoiler: Oberyn's showboating got him killed. In a real sense, The Mountain was the underdog of this fight.]]
* DecadentCourt: Those in position of powers may neglect their day-to-day governing duties in favor of engaging in realpolitik, forcing their more responsible peers to pick up the slack. The lack of unity among the kingdom's rulers causes many serious problems to fall by the wayside. Most concerning, nearly everyone capable of protecting the realm is too wrapped up in politics to deal with the wildling invasion or even realize that there is an upcoming ZombieApocalypse at their door, despite [[CassandraTruth repeated warnings]] from the Night's Watch. [[spoiler: Stannis is the only one who took those warnings seriously.]]
* DeceasedParentsAreTheBest: Viserys ''tried'' to invoke this trope for Daenerys throughout her childhood; not just about their parents, but their older brother as well. Unfortunately, his tales involved a lot of whitewashing that crashed horribly against the dark and complex reality Daenerys learns actually exists when Ser Barristan, a firsthand source, alludes as to the very real madness of her father, the very human limitations of her mother, and the failings of the supposedly perfect Rhaegar (who he, nonetheless, still admires). Not to mention the fact that Viserys was a terrible example of a parental-sibling-potential-husband figure, so he was not exactly the best advertisement for the caring side of the Targaryen family dynamic he tried to portray, himself. But Daenerys is so emotionally invested in the idea that her family had always been just, gifted, beloved and wrongfully usurped that she has acute difficulty accepting the nuances of their history, even though she now knows it's not entirely how Viserys painted it as.
* DefeatMeansFriendship: The concept of fealty is questioned time and again since the bannermen of most of the great houses started as their rivals. Not all remain loyal despite centuries of servitude and its possible [[TheFarmerAndTheViper they might rebel if the conditions are right]].

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* DavidVersusGoliath: Deconstructed both ways with Ser Gregor vs. Prince Oberyn. Gregor's size and strength count for little against an experienced warrior who knows how to deal with enemies with his advantages. [[spoiler: Oberyn's [[spoiler:Oberyn's showboating got him killed. In a real sense, The Mountain was the underdog of this fight.]]
* DecadentCourt: Those in position positions of powers power may neglect their day-to-day governing duties in favor of engaging in realpolitik, forcing their more responsible peers to pick up the slack. The lack of unity among the kingdom's rulers causes many serious problems to fall by the wayside. Most concerning, The biggest concern is that nearly everyone capable of protecting the realm is too wrapped up in politics to deal with the wildling invasion or even realize that there is an upcoming ZombieApocalypse at their door, despite [[CassandraTruth repeated warnings]] from the Night's Watch. [[spoiler: Stannis is the only one who took those warnings seriously.]]
* DeceasedParentsAreTheBest: Viserys ''tried'' to invoke this trope for Daenerys throughout her childhood; not just about their parents, but their older brother as well. Unfortunately, his tales involved a lot of whitewashing that crashed clashed horribly against the dark and complex reality Daenerys learns actually exists when Ser Barristan, a firsthand source, alludes as to the very real madness of her father, the very human limitations of her mother, and the failings of the supposedly perfect Rhaegar (who he, nonetheless, still admires). Not to mention the fact that Viserys was a terrible example of a parental-sibling-potential-husband figure, so he was not exactly the best advertisement for the caring side of the Targaryen family dynamic he tried to portray, himself. But Daenerys is so emotionally invested in the idea that her family had always been just, gifted, beloved and wrongfully usurped that she has acute difficulty accepting the nuances of their history, even though she now knows it's not entirely how Viserys painted it as.
* DefeatMeansFriendship: The concept of fealty is questioned time and again since the bannermen of most of the great houses started as their rivals. Not all remain loyal despite centuries of servitude and its it's possible [[TheFarmerAndTheViper [[TheStarscream they might rebel if the conditions are right]].



** Hoster Tully was afraid his daughter would not be able to marry well if people knew she was pregnant -- and the child's father was from a lower class and [[spoiler: Hoster's own ward]], no less. [[spoiler: So he deceived her into taking abortifacients. The loss of her child left Lysa so bitter and traumatized that she refused to see her father while he was dying.]]

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** Hoster Tully was afraid his daughter would not be able to marry well if people knew she was pregnant -- and the child's father was from a lower class and [[spoiler: Hoster's own ward]], no less. [[spoiler: So less, [[spoiler:so he deceived her into taking abortifacients. The loss of her child left Lysa so bitter and traumatized that she refused to see her father while he was dying.]]



** The Martells' single minded pursuit of their goals also cost them dearly: Oberyn's obsession with getting a confession out of his almost beaten opponent [[spoiler: get him killed in a fight he otherwise would have won]]; Quentyn [[spoiler: get burned to death by a dragon]] when he refused to accept that his quest had ended in failure; and the Sand Snakes' refusal to consider anything other than taking brutal vengeance promises to only bring more pain and suffering to themselves and others, as Ellaria points out.

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** The Martells' single minded single-minded pursuit of their goals also cost them dearly: Oberyn's obsession with getting a confession out of his almost beaten opponent [[spoiler: get [[spoiler:gets him killed in a fight he otherwise would have won]]; Quentyn [[spoiler: get [[spoiler:gets burned to death by a dragon]] when he refused to accept that his quest had ended in failure; failure, and the Sand Snakes' refusal to consider anything other than taking brutal vengeance promises to only bring more pain and suffering to themselves and others, as Ellaria points out.



* TheDulcineaEffect: Daenerys's surprisingly fast military successes in Essos are in large part due to talented and skilled warriors falling in love with her and wanting to help her. [[spoiler: As they leave her one by one due to death, exile, or betrayal, her rule begins to falter just as quickly.]]

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* TheDulcineaEffect: Daenerys's surprisingly fast military successes in Essos are in large part due to talented and skilled warriors falling in love with her and wanting to help her. [[spoiler: As [[spoiler:As they leave her one by one due to death, exile, or betrayal, her rule begins to falter just as quickly.]]



** Joffrey [[spoiler:has Ned Stark executed after Ned is forced to confess to treason rather than send him to the Night's Watch. This leads to the North, under the leadership of Ned's son, rebelling against the Iron Throne. Joffrey continuing cruelty leads to the people of King's Landing hating him and eventually leads to Joffrey's murder by his wife's family, partially out of fear he will abuse her.]]

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** Joffrey [[spoiler:has Ned Stark executed after Ned is forced to confess to treason rather than send him to the Night's Watch. This leads to the North, under the leadership of Ned's son, rebelling against the Iron Throne. Joffrey Joffrey's continuing cruelty leads to the people of King's Landing hating him and eventually leads to Joffrey's murder by his wife's family, partially out of fear he will abuse her.]]



** After suffering a long voyage on a ship and suffering the humiliation of a slave auction where several dubious slavers want to capture him, [[spoiler: Tyrion, Jorah and Penny]] end up being bought by Yezzan, a Yunkish slaver who is relatively lenient and treats his captives, in [[spoiler: Tyrion]]'s experience, better than most smallfolk in Westeros. During his captivity, [[spoiler: Tyrion]] finds himself becoming adjusted to the conditions to his own distaste, since the alternatives for [[spoiler: a dwarf in Slavery's Bay, wanted for murder and deprived of funds, is deadly.]]

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** After suffering a long voyage on a ship and suffering the humiliation of a slave auction where several dubious slavers want to capture him, [[spoiler: Tyrion, Jorah and Penny]] end up being bought by Yezzan, a Yunkish slaver who is relatively lenient and treats his captives, in [[spoiler: Tyrion]]'s [[spoiler:Tyrion]]'s experience, better than most smallfolk in Westeros. During his captivity, [[spoiler: Tyrion]] [[spoiler:Tyrion]] finds himself becoming adjusted to the conditions to his own distaste, since the alternatives for [[spoiler: a [[spoiler:a dwarf in Slavery's Bay, wanted for murder and deprived of funds, is are deadly.]]



** Dany finds that some of the slaves-- especially the ones who were quasi-professionals (scribes, healers, teachers)-- miss the job security and relative comfort of their earlier lives over her "liberation" and beg to be allowed to sell themselves back into slavery, where they at least had enough to eat and somewhere to sleep. Many former slaves are much worse off and having trouble surviving now they are free. Daenerys finds herself handicapped in her attempts to rebuild Slaver's Bay to a slave-free society, especially since she underestimates the complexity of the situation and society at large.

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** Dany finds that some of the slaves-- slaves, especially the ones who were quasi-professionals (scribes, healers, teachers)-- teachers), miss the job security and relative comfort of their earlier lives over her "liberation" and beg to be allowed to sell themselves back into slavery, where they at least had enough to eat and somewhere to sleep. Many former slaves are much worse off and having trouble surviving now they are free. Daenerys finds herself handicapped in her attempts to rebuild Slaver's Bay to a slave-free society, especially since she underestimates the complexity of the situation and society at large.



** With the rise of the [[ChurchMilitant Faith Militant]], many an outlaw, ruffian (male or female), and hedge knight is likely to join up; if only for the promise of regular meals and a stable mode of living that won't get them hanged. They'll still be doing pretty much the same old things only now it's sanctioned by the clergy.

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** With the rise of the [[ChurchMilitant Faith Militant]], many an outlaw, ruffian (male or female), and hedge knight is likely to join up; if only for the promise of regular meals and a stable mode of living that won't get them hanged. They'll still be doing pretty much the same old things things, only now it's sanctioned by the clergy.



** What's more, after [[spoiler:Tywin is killed, Tyrion is in exile, and Kevan alienated]] it does fall on Cersei to rule the Lannister regime in the capital, and thanks to the sexist gender roles of Westeros and the holes in Cersei's education, she has never learned ''how'' to rule. She makes multiple foolish mistakes while thinking she's outplaying all sides, empowers a dangerous new rival for power while trying to lessen the influence of an allied faction, and generally makes a hash of things until she's caused a major crisis for the throne. Only teaching the skills of ruling and leadership to men means when you do need a woman to step up, they may be missing the basics that would allow them to do so. Not to mention that the feeling of being cheated out of her inheritance added up to Cersei's paranoia and left her unable to keep any alliances, as she sees everyone as potential threats to her power. Also, Cersei tries imitating her father in acting like how she thinks a man should act, and as a result is internally misogynist.
** [[spoiler: Sansa Stark, Alys Karstark, and Donella Hornwood]] are considered relatively unimportant while the male heirs of their houses are alive. When their family members die, other men try to marry them to take control of their inheritance without even giving them the chance to grieve.

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** What's more, after [[spoiler:Tywin is killed, Tyrion is in exile, and Kevan is alienated]] it does fall on Cersei to rule the Lannister regime in the capital, and thanks to the sexist gender roles of Westeros and the holes in Cersei's education, she has never learned ''how'' to rule. She makes multiple foolish mistakes while thinking she's outplaying all sides, empowers a dangerous new rival for power while trying to lessen the influence of an allied faction, and generally makes a hash of things until she's caused a major crisis for the throne. Only teaching the skills of ruling and leadership to men means when you do need a woman to step up, they may be missing the basics that would allow them to do so. Not to mention that the feeling of being cheated out of her inheritance added up to Cersei's paranoia and left her unable to keep any alliances, as she sees everyone as potential threats to her power. Also, Cersei tries imitating her father in acting like how she thinks a man should act, and as a result is internally misogynist.
** [[spoiler: Sansa [[spoiler:Sansa Stark, Alys Karstark, and Donella Hornwood]] are considered relatively unimportant while the male heirs of their houses are alive. When their family members die, other men try to marry them to take control of their inheritance without even giving them the chance to grieve.



** Jaime Lannister points out that the many vows knights are made to take eventually contradict each other, so expecting a knight to keep all his promises is ridiculous. He also notes that many times those [[MyMasterRightOrWrong vows are swore to terrible people]] because those are the ones in power, meaning knights are expected to go along with their lieges' atrocities [[MortonsFork but]] are also condemned for committing them or letting them happen.

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** Jaime Lannister points out that the many vows knights are made to take eventually contradict each other, so expecting a knight to keep all his promises is ridiculous. He also notes that many times those [[MyMasterRightOrWrong vows are swore sworn to terrible people]] because those are the ones in power, meaning knights are expected to go along with their lieges' atrocities [[MortonsFork but]] are also condemned for committing them or letting them happen.



* IHaveYourWife: Hostage taking is a common practice in Westeros. [[GrayAndGrayMorality Both villains and protagonists do it and often for similar reasons, depending on the context]].
** Anyone can be made into a hostage, often in ways so subtle it requires a double-take to notice. Sending your child to be someone's ward or squire involves either coercion or a huge amount of trust. Some people get KickedUpstairs where they can be watched, such Harys Swyft, [[spoiler:whom Cersei named Hand of the King]] so his son-in-law Kevan wouldn't make a move against her. On the flip side, some people may have to be wary of their in-laws, such as Elia Martell, who was held against her will by her father-in-law, King Aerys, so her family would fight for him.

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* IHaveYourWife: Hostage taking is a common practice in Westeros. [[GrayAndGrayMorality [[GreyAndGrayMorality Both villains and protagonists do it and often for similar reasons, depending on the context]].
** Anyone can be made into a hostage, often in ways so subtle it requires a double-take to notice. Sending your child to be someone's ward or squire involves either coercion or a huge amount of trust. Some people get KickedUpstairs where they can be watched, such as Harys Swyft, [[spoiler:whom Cersei named Hand of the King]] so his son-in-law Kevan wouldn't make a move against her. On the flip side, some people may have to be wary of their in-laws, such as Elia Martell, who was held against her will by her father-in-law, King Aerys, so her family would fight for him.



** Robb wanted to trade his sisters for Jaime Lannister, but feared that his bannermen won't respect him if he gave up the Kingslayer, an extremely valuable hostage, for two mere girls. After chastising him for letting sexism stop him from saving his sisters, Catelyn [[spoiler: carried out the prisoner exchange behind his back in a desperate bid to be reunited with her daughters. Robb had to arrest his own mother for treason and the exchange didn't go through due to several complications. [[ILied Not that the Lannisters were going to honor the pact anyway]]; though Jaime actually would have returned the girls to Catelyn had it been left to him -- mostly because nobody would expect it of the man with shit for honour -- and later on he goes to considerable lengths to honour his bargain with Catelyn]].

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** Robb wanted to trade his sisters for Jaime Lannister, but feared that his bannermen won't respect him if he gave up the Kingslayer, an extremely valuable hostage, for two mere girls. After chastising him for letting sexism stop him from saving his sisters, Catelyn [[spoiler: carried out the prisoner exchange behind his back in a desperate bid to be reunited with her daughters. Robb had to arrest his own mother for treason and the exchange didn't go through due to several complications. [[ILied Not that the Lannisters were going to honor the pact anyway]]; anyway]], though Jaime actually would have returned the girls to Catelyn had it been left to him -- mostly because nobody would expect it of the man with shit for honour -- and later on he goes to considerable lengths to honour his bargain with Catelyn]].



* KickTheDog: Tywin Lannister's brutality is calculated to leave a lasting impression. [[spoiler: He is killed by his own son for an act of unbelievable cruelty years ago instead of an enemy looking to avenge his more well known atrocities]].

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* KickTheDog: Tywin Lannister's brutality is calculated to leave a lasting impression. [[spoiler: He [[spoiler:He is killed by his own son for an act of unbelievable cruelty years ago instead of an enemy looking to avenge his more well known atrocities]].



** [[spoiler: Viserys Targaryen]] was killed by [[spoiler:the Dothraki]] for being an asshole, but [[spoiler: Daenerys]] does feel sorry for his death, as he did take care of her when she was still a baby.

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** [[spoiler: Viserys Targaryen]] was killed by [[spoiler:the Dothraki]] for being an asshole, but [[spoiler: Daenerys]] [[spoiler:Daenerys]] does feel sorry for his death, as he did take care of her when she was still a baby.



* KlingonPromotion: House [[spoiler: Bolton]] and House [[spoiler:Frey]] reached their current positions -- the titles of [[spoiler: Lord Paramount of the North and Warden of the North]] for the former; several new castles and marriage alliances for the latter -- by betraying their liege lords. Their new bannermen are ''furious'' over the regime change because breaking an oath of fealty and [[spoiler: violating SacredHospitality]] are both considered crossing the MoralEventHorizon. Because the feudal system rests on a lord being sure that his vassals are loyal and trustworthy and the vassals being sure that their lord is firm but fair, the [[spoiler: Boltons and Freys]] remaining unpunished for their crimes is a huge affront to people's sensibilities; which is why [[spoiler: the northerners and riverlanders are secretly plotting to get the Boltons and Freys out of power by any means necessary, and won't do anything to help the Freys when they begin getting murdered by the Brotherhood without Banners]]. And that's not even mentioning the people's UndyingLoyalty to the ousted lords or the fact that in the process the [[spoiler: Freys and Boltons]] murdered the men and relatives of the lords they now presume to rule over.

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* KlingonPromotion: House [[spoiler: Bolton]] [[spoiler:Bolton]] and House [[spoiler:Frey]] reached their current positions -- the titles of [[spoiler: Lord Paramount of the North and Warden of the North]] for the former; several new castles and marriage alliances for the latter -- by betraying their liege lords. Their new bannermen are ''furious'' over the regime change because breaking an oath of fealty and [[spoiler: violating SacredHospitality]] are both considered crossing the MoralEventHorizon. Because the feudal system rests on a lord being sure that his vassals are loyal and trustworthy and the vassals being sure that their lord is firm but fair, the [[spoiler: Boltons and Freys]] remaining unpunished for their crimes is a huge affront to people's sensibilities; which is why [[spoiler: the northerners and riverlanders are secretly plotting to get the Boltons and Freys out of power by any means necessary, and won't do anything to help the Freys when they begin getting murdered by the Brotherhood without Banners]]. And that's not even mentioning the people's UndyingLoyalty to the ousted lords or the fact that in the process the [[spoiler: Freys [[spoiler:Freys and Boltons]] murdered the men and relatives of the lords they now presume to rule over.



* LockedOutOfTheLoop: Princess Arianne Martell cooks up a failed coup to oust her father Prince Doran because it appears she is to be passed over as his heir. Unnecessary bloodshed could have been avoided had she been clued in that [[spoiler:its all a part of his plan to oust the Lannister/Baratheon regime and restore the Targaryens to the throne.]]

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* LockedOutOfTheLoop: Princess Arianne Martell cooks up a failed coup to oust her father Prince Doran because it appears she is to be passed over as his heir. Unnecessary bloodshed could have been avoided had she been clued in that [[spoiler:its [[spoiler:it's all a part of his plan to oust the Lannister/Baratheon regime and restore the Targaryens to the throne.]]
14th May '16 9:03:53 PM NightShade96
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** Tyrion's demonisation by the commons in King's Landing wouldn't have helped his case with his father after Blackwater when Cersei was able to convince Tywin that most of the defensive work was her doing. Had the blame for most of the Lannister mistakes been applied to the correct people in the popular mind instead of reaching for the easy "Demon Monkey" scapegoat role they loaded him with, Tywin might have actually taken note. [[TheUnFavourite Well, maybe]]. At the very least, Cersei would not have come out of it quite so glowingly.

to:

** Tyrion's demonisation by the commons in King's Landing wouldn't have helped his case with his father after Blackwater when Cersei was able to convince Tywin that most of the defensive work was her doing. Had the blame for most of the Lannister mistakes been applied to the correct people in the popular mind instead of reaching for the easy "Demon Monkey" scapegoat role they loaded him with, Tywin might have actually taken note. [[TheUnFavourite [[TheUnfavourite Well, maybe]]. At the very least, Cersei would not have come out of it quite so glowingly.



** Baelor the Blessed is fondly remembered by the faithful and has been put on an enormous pedestal for decades. But, it's rather easy for readers (and Tyrion as well as others in-universe) to come to the alternate conclusion that he might just have been taking the Targaryen family nuttiness to new, religious places when reading of his exploits. [[ManBehindTheMan His uncle]], Viserys, may have had a large part to do with the positive spin and damage limitation placed on Baelor's actions at the time, to boot, as one of the more successful Hands before taking the throne himself. And, he's considered pretty much an EvilChancellor in folklore for his pains.

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** Baelor the Blessed is fondly remembered by the faithful and has been put on an enormous pedestal for decades. But, it's rather easy for readers (and Tyrion as well as others in-universe) to come to the alternate conclusion that he might just have been taking the Targaryen family nuttiness to new, religious places when reading of his exploits. [[ManBehindTheMan [[TheManBehindTheMan His uncle]], Viserys, may have had a large part to do with the positive spin and damage limitation placed on Baelor's actions at the time, to boot, as one of the more successful Hands before taking the throne himself. And, he's considered pretty much an EvilChancellor in folklore for his pains.



** Renly cultivates a good image and uses this to justify his attempt to usurp the Iron Throne, however he is in reality a greedy and vain figure who is willing to murder his brother and starve hundreds of thousands of people to seize power.

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** Renly cultivates a good image and uses this to justify his attempt to usurp the Iron Throne, however Throne. However, he is in reality a greedy and vain figure who is willing to murder his brother and starve hundreds of thousands of people to seize power.



* AbductionIsLove: The Free Folk believe that kidnapping women to be brides is justified because the woman can just stab a man she doesn't like while he sleeps. This justification falls apart because the practice also applied to women from below the Wall, many of whom probably don't have much experience putting knives in people and even if she could she'd be stuck beyond the Wall and surrounded by friends and family of the man she just killed.
* AllAnimalsAreDogs: At first, Dany's dragons ''do'' behave in a puppylike manner, while they're still small enough to ride on her shoulder and generally do exactly as she asks. As they grow, though, they become far more aggressive and dangerous to be around. As of ''A Dance With Dragons'' they have become so out of control that [[spoiler: Dany is forced to chain them up (which doesn't help matters) after Drogon eats a human child. Drogon even attacks Dany, and she is forced to use a whip ( [[HarsherInHindsight "A dragon is no slave!"]]) to make him obey her. Dany ''is'', of course, the "Mother of Dragons" and she must make her child obey or risk more innocent people getting burned, and striking a dragon with your bare hand isn't going to do much good, but it's still a bit ironic.]]

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* AbductionIsLove: The Free Folk believe that kidnapping women to be brides is justified because the woman can just stab a man she doesn't like while he sleeps. This justification falls apart because the practice is also applied to women from below the Wall, many of whom probably don't have much experience putting knives in people and even if she could she'd be stuck beyond the Wall and surrounded by friends and family of the man she just killed.
* AllAnimalsAreDogs: At first, Dany's dragons ''do'' behave in a puppylike manner, while they're still small enough to ride on her shoulder and generally do exactly as she asks. As they grow, though, they become far more aggressive and dangerous to be around. As of ''A Dance With Dragons'' they have become so out of control that [[spoiler: Dany is forced to chain them up (which doesn't help matters) after Drogon eats a human child. Drogon even attacks Dany, and she is forced to use a whip ( [[HarsherInHindsight ([[HarsherInHindsight "A dragon is no slave!"]]) to make him obey her. Dany ''is'', of course, the "Mother of Dragons" and she must make her child obey or risk more innocent people getting burned, and striking a dragon with your bare hand isn't going to do much good, but it's still a bit ironic.]]



* ArmoredVillainsUnarmoredHeroes: Armor's unwieldiness can be exploited by unarmored opponents (Ser Vardis vs. Bronn, Oberyn vs. The Mountain) but going up against someone in armor with the wrong kind of weapon can get you killed (Syrio Forel vs. Ser Meryn). All in all, what you wear is no guarantee as to your general safety or relative virtue (Petyr Baelish vs Brandon Stark; Ser Hugh "May's Well've Worn Nothing For All The Good The Bling Did Me" of the Vale vs The Mountain).

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* ArmoredVillainsUnarmoredHeroes: Armor's unwieldiness can be exploited by unarmored opponents (Ser Vardis vs. Bronn, Oberyn vs. The Mountain) but going up against someone in armor with the wrong kind of weapon can get you killed (Syrio Forel vs. Ser Meryn). All in all, what you wear is no guarantee as to your general safety or relative virtue (Petyr Baelish vs Brandon Stark; Ser Hugh "May's Well've "May As Well Have Worn Nothing For All The Good The Bling Did Me" of the Vale vs The Mountain).



** [[spoiler: Theon Greyjoy's [[AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs occupation]] of Winterfell]] turns into a nightmare. He has too few men to properly garrison the place, it is too far from reinforcements and most of the people around there hate the occupiers, he refuses to abandon it. It demoralizes the enemy, but his refusal to sack it and leave leads him to ruin.

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** [[spoiler: Theon Greyjoy's [[AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs occupation]] of Winterfell]] turns into a nightmare. He has too few men to properly garrison the place, it is too far from reinforcements and most of the people around there hate the occupiers, but he refuses to abandon it. It demoralizes the enemy, but his refusal to sack it and leave leads him to ruin.



** Ser Hugh of the Vale might as well have gone into battle naked against The Mountain for the good the fancy-looking, ego-inflating armor did him, proving that even tasteful, well-designed bling is still a bad idea if you're a newly-promoted, tourney noob facing a professional killer.

to:

** Ser Hugh of the Vale might as well have gone into battle naked against The Mountain for all the good the fancy-looking, ego-inflating armor did him, proving that even tasteful, well-designed bling is still a bad idea if you're a newly-promoted, tourney noob facing a professional killer.



* BrilliantButLazy: Robert Baratheon had all the traditionally accepted traits of the perfect king. He was both ruthless to his enemies and had a knack for making allies. But he found that VictoryIsBoring and preferred letting others rule in his stead. His inattentiveness ruins the stability of the realm.

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* BrilliantButLazy: Robert Baratheon had all the traditionally accepted traits of the perfect king. He was both ruthless to his enemies and had a knack for making allies. But allies, but he found that VictoryIsBoring and preferred letting others rule in his stead. His inattentiveness ruins the stability of the realm.



** Petyr Baelish couldn't marry his childhood crush because he wasn't highborn enough for her. [[spoiler:He tried a duel with the man she was engaged to for her hand, and got beaten badly.]] So, he orchestrated a civil war to get back at the world for Catelyn's ArrangedMarriage.
** Lysa's obsession with Petyr, compounded with a loveless marriage and resentment about his feelings toward her sister, left her vulnerable to his manipulation. Not only does she [[spoiler: murder her husband and lay the groundwork for a war, she also tries to murder her niece from fear that she might take Petyr away from her. And ends up getting killed by Petyr who was done using her.]]
* ChildrenAreInnocent: Doesn't mean they can't do terrible things, or that even their attempts to do well will go well.

to:

** Petyr Baelish couldn't marry his childhood crush because he wasn't highborn enough for her. [[spoiler:He tried a duel with the man she was engaged to for her hand, and got beaten badly.]] So, badly, so he orchestrated a civil war to get back at the world for Catelyn's ArrangedMarriage.
ArrangedMarriage]].
** Lysa's obsession with Petyr, compounded with a loveless marriage and resentment about his feelings toward her sister, left her vulnerable to his manipulation. Not only does she [[spoiler: murder her husband and lay the groundwork for a war, she also tries to murder her niece from fear that she might take Petyr away from her. And her, and ends up getting killed by Petyr who was done using her.]]
* ChildrenAreInnocent: Doesn't This doesn't mean they can't do terrible things, or that even their attempts to do well will go well.



** Joffrey is seen as a nuisance and its thought he will be easily manipulated. That changes when he [[spoiler:has Eddard Stark executed]].

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** Joffrey is seen as a nuisance and its it's thought he will be easily manipulated. That changes when he [[spoiler:has Eddard Stark executed]].



** Robert "Sweetrobin" Arryn really likes to watch people get thrown off a mountain or duel to the death as a form of entertainment, but doesn't seem to really get what death means or how the world doesn't revolve around his needs. As self-centered and bonkers as Joffrey, if just a bit sweeter because he really doesn't know any better and is a lot frailer. There is no actual, overt malice in him, just childish glee, tantrums, and an epic-class MyBelovedSmother to pin much of the problem on.

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** Robert "Sweetrobin" Arryn really likes to watch people get thrown off a mountain or duel to the death as a form of entertainment, but doesn't seem to really get what death means or how the world doesn't revolve around his needs. As self-centered and bonkers as Joffrey, if just a bit sweeter because he really doesn't know any better and is a lot frailer. There is no actual, overt malice in him, just childish glee, tantrums, and an epic-class MyBelovedSmother to pin much of the problem problems on.



** Daenerys, married at 13 and already Queen at 16, has severely affected the slave trade and taken over Meereen. She even takes advantage of her age and sex so some of her enemies will underestimate her. But she's still subject to a teenage girl's lusts. The stresses of ruling and having to constantly compromise to the slavers laying siege to her city and holding slave auctions in front of her gates, and marrying a potential enemy to maintain a semblance of peace prove too much and [[spoiler:she flees Meereen atop one of her dragons.]]

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** Daenerys, married at 13 and already Queen at 16, has severely affected the slave trade and taken over Meereen. She even takes advantage of her age and sex so some of her enemies will underestimate her. But her, but she's still subject to a teenage girl's lusts. The stresses of ruling and having to constantly compromise to the slavers laying siege to her city and holding slave auctions in front of her gates, and marrying a potential enemy to maintain a semblance of peace prove too much and [[spoiler:she flees Meereen atop one of her dragons.]]



* ChronicHeroSyndrome: Dany could not bear the oppression and suffering of the slaves in Slaver's Bay, so she decided to liberate them, even though it diverted her from her aim of claiming the Iron Throne. The result? [[spoiler: Astapor is taken over by a new king and then depopulated by war, famine, and plague; Yunkai reverts to business as usual as soon as she leaves; and Meereen descends into a political and economic quagmire. Even then, she refuses to let go of her need to help her "children," to the point where it starts to look less like idealism and more like a neurotic compulsion.]] Inevitably, the scheming characters are catching wise; for instance, [[spoiler: Tyrion]] points out (though it's a tad ambiguous as to how serious he was) that the only surefire way to force Dany into conquering Westeros is to create a situation where she'll need to swoop in on her dragons and save the day--[[spoiler: in this case, having her young nephew attempt a land invasion in which he cannot possibly be successful without her]].

to:

* ChronicHeroSyndrome: Dany could not bear the oppression and suffering of the slaves in Slaver's Bay, so she decided to liberate them, even though it diverted her from her aim of claiming the Iron Throne. The result? [[spoiler: Astapor [[spoiler:Astapor is taken over by a new king and then depopulated by war, famine, and plague; plague, Yunkai reverts to business as usual as soon as she leaves; leaves, and Meereen descends into a political and economic quagmire. Even then, she refuses to let go of her need to help her "children," to the point where it starts to look less like idealism and more like a neurotic compulsion.]] Inevitably, the scheming characters are catching wise; for instance, [[spoiler: Tyrion]] [[spoiler:Tyrion]] points out (though it's a tad ambiguous as to how serious he was) that the only surefire way to force Dany into conquering Westeros is to create a situation where she'll need to swoop in on her dragons and save the day--[[spoiler: in day--[[spoiler:in this case, having her young nephew attempt a land invasion in which he cannot possibly be successful without her]].
14th May '16 8:25:39 PM NightShade96
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** [[spoiler: Viserys Targaryen]] was killed by [[spoiler:the Dothraki]] for being an asshole, but [[spoiler: Daenerys]] does feel sorry for his death, as he did took care of her when she was still a baby.

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** [[spoiler: Viserys Targaryen]] was killed by [[spoiler:the Dothraki]] for being an asshole, but [[spoiler: Daenerys]] does feel sorry for his death, as he did took take care of her when she was still a baby.



* LovingaShadow: Like the LadykillerInLove example above, Robert was implied to have never really known Lyanna all that well, and that he was more excited about marrying her for the sake of being Ned's brother than any values of her own. This is implied when Robert tries to broker a marriage between his [[spoiler: false]] son and heir Joffrey and Ned's eldest daughter Sansa. Ditto for Sansa and Joffrey,showing how dangerous it could be in a CrapsackWorld as [[spoiler: when he showed his true colors to Sansa she already fell for the cultivated image of a PrinceCharming meant to mask his true sociopathic nature, no thanks in no small part to several birth defects from inbreeding.]]

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* LovingaShadow: LovingAShadow: Like the LadykillerInLove example above, Robert was implied to have never really known Lyanna all that well, and that he was more excited about marrying her for the sake of being Ned's brother than any values of her own. This is implied when Robert tries to broker a marriage between his [[spoiler: false]] son and heir Joffrey and Ned's eldest daughter Sansa. Ditto for Sansa and Joffrey,showing how dangerous it could be in a CrapsackWorld as [[spoiler: when he showed his true colors to Sansa she already fell for the cultivated image of a PrinceCharming meant to mask his true sociopathic nature, no thanks in no small part to several birth defects from inbreeding.]]



* NoTrueScotsman: The Ironborn have a vaguely undefined set of codes as to what constitutes true ironborn behaviour. In [[BeliefMakesYouStupid Aeron Greyjoy]]'s views, true ironborn are drowned in saltwater as per the religion of the Drowned God, but many Ironborn, not wanting to risk certain death. take a more user-friendly ritual to Aeron's contempt. All of them look down on maesters and book learning but the richest lord of the Iron Islands is [[KlingonScientistsGetNoRespect Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw]]. Balon Greyjoy looks down on Theon Greyjoy for being a "greenlander" but nominates his daughter Asha Greyjoy as his heir, going completely against the macho viking culture he wants to install. Likewise everyone despises Euron Greyjoy for his blasphemy and relative cosmopolitanism, but [[spoiler:he gets voted in as King of the Iron Islands because he has a bigger plunder than any of them have ever seen]]. Victarion Greyjoy despises chattel slavery but has no problem with taking thralls, salt-wives and executing male prostitutes. The idea of a culture being a SingleIssueWonk of RapePillageAndBurn is obviously shown as a ridiculous endeavor.

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* NoTrueScotsman: The Ironborn have a vaguely undefined set of codes as to what constitutes true ironborn Ironborn behaviour. In [[BeliefMakesYouStupid Aeron Greyjoy]]'s views, true ironborn are drowned in saltwater as per the religion of the Drowned God, but many Ironborn, not wanting to risk certain death. death, take a more user-friendly ritual to Aeron's contempt. All of them look down on maesters and book learning but the richest lord of the Iron Islands is [[KlingonScientistsGetNoRespect Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw]]. Balon Greyjoy looks down on Theon Greyjoy for being a "greenlander" but nominates his daughter Asha Greyjoy as his heir, going completely against the macho viking culture he wants to install. Likewise everyone despises Euron Greyjoy for his blasphemy and relative cosmopolitanism, but [[spoiler:he gets voted in as King of the Iron Islands because he has a bigger plunder than any of them have ever seen]]. Victarion Greyjoy despises chattel slavery but has no problem with taking thralls, salt-wives and executing male prostitutes. The idea of a culture being a SingleIssueWonk of RapePillageAndBurn is obviously shown as a ridiculous endeavor.



** Brienne's loyalty to Catelyn Stark (and her search for the two girls) is without question and she continued to try living up to it even after Catelyn's death. Except... [[spoiler:Lady Stoneheart doesn't quite agree with her interpretation or methods. And, is putting her through one of the cruellest tests of loyalty to be found in all the books combined by making her go directly against her loyalty to Jaime.]]

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** Brienne's loyalty to Catelyn Stark (and her search for the two girls) is without question and she continued to try living up to it even after Catelyn's death. Except... [[spoiler:Lady Stoneheart doesn't quite agree with her interpretation or methods. And, methods, and is putting her through one of the cruellest tests of loyalty to be found in all the books combined by making her go directly against her loyalty to Jaime.]]



* WeHaveReserves: [[BigScrewedUpFamily There are certainly a lot of Freys]]. So many, that the [[spoiler: rapidly accelerating]] number of character deaths that have occurred to the House have yet to raise alarm bells within it. This is partly thanks to 1) nobody particularly irreplaceable (even in other Freys' eyes) getting offed to draw the attention... [[spoiler: yet]], 2) the [[spoiler: (as it turns out, false)]] sense of security they have in their safety in numbers and 3) nobody being able to communicate enough to work out [[spoiler: that there is more than normal attrition going on]], thanks to their wide dispersal to keep their fingers in various important political factions' pies. The latter seems a fairly sound strategy, when you have a lot of bodies to throw at your priority of keeping your [[SmallNameBigEgo influence]] visible [[spoiler: (but, that has its own downsides when most hate your guts and, yet, are being reminded that there are a lot of you that can be used as CannonFodder ahead of their own troops)]]. The main problem in all this is... you can count the hard-working, practised and ''able'' Freys who are fully willing to and capable of working with each other (and chivvy others into moving their butts) on about one hand -- [[TeethClenchedTeamwork if that]]. They lose those key players, and it's Game Over for the House as a whole, regardless of the numbers they started with, as they'll either splinter and kill themselves off [[DysfunctionJunction rather directly]]. And/or, be even easier to pick off thanks to uncertain chains of command and leadership leading to even stupider strategic decisions than normal.

to:

* WeHaveReserves: [[BigScrewedUpFamily There are certainly a lot of Freys]]. So many, that the [[spoiler: rapidly accelerating]] number of character deaths that have occurred to the House have yet to raise alarm bells within it. This is partly thanks to 1) nobody particularly irreplaceable (even in other Freys' eyes) getting offed to draw the attention... [[spoiler: yet]], 2) the [[spoiler: (as it turns out, false)]] sense of security they have in their safety in numbers and 3) nobody being able to communicate enough to work out [[spoiler: that there is more than normal attrition going on]], thanks to their wide dispersal to keep their fingers in various important political factions' pies. The latter seems a fairly sound strategy, when you have a lot of bodies to throw at your priority of keeping your [[SmallNameBigEgo influence]] visible [[spoiler: (but, that has its own downsides when most hate your guts and, yet, are being reminded that there are a lot of you that can be used as CannonFodder ahead of their own troops)]]. The main problem in all this is... you can count the hard-working, practised and ''able'' Freys who are fully willing to and capable of working with each other (and chivvy others into moving their butts) on about one hand -- [[TeethClenchedTeamwork if that]]. They lose those key players, and it's Game Over for the House as a whole, regardless of the numbers they started with, as they'll either splinter and kill themselves off [[DysfunctionJunction rather directly]]. And/or, directly]], and/or be even easier to pick off thanks to uncertain chains of command and leadership leading to even stupider strategic decisions than normal.



* WithCatlikeTread: The band of Northern warriors called The Wild Hares would ride out singing. The Ironborn ambush and kill them because they could be heard from miles away

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* WithCatlikeTread: The band of Northern warriors called The Wild Hares would ride out singing. The Ironborn ambush and kill them because they could be heard from miles awayaway.
13th May '16 2:14:26 AM damus2300
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** [[spoiler: Theon Greyjoy]]'s [[AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs occupation]] of [[spoiler:Winterfell]] turns into a nightmare. He has too few men to properly garrison the place, [[spoiler:Winterfell]] is too far from reinforcements and most of the people around there hate the occupiers, but [[spoiler:Theon]] refuses to abandon it. It demoralizes the enemy, but his refusal to sack it and leave leads him to ruin.

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** [[spoiler: Theon Greyjoy]]'s Greyjoy's [[AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs occupation]] of [[spoiler:Winterfell]] Winterfell]] turns into a nightmare. He has too few men to properly garrison the place, [[spoiler:Winterfell]] it is too far from reinforcements and most of the people around there hate the occupiers, but [[spoiler:Theon]] he refuses to abandon it. It demoralizes the enemy, but his refusal to sack it and leave leads him to ruin.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=DeconstructedTrope.ASongOfIceAndFire