History DeconstructedTrope / ASongOfIceAndFire

25th Apr '17 5:40:58 AM Anarquistador
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* TheDulcineaEffect: Daenerys's surprisingly fast military successes in Essos are in large part due to talented and skilled warriors falling in love with her - whether it be the person she is or the idea of [[TheHighQueen who she could be]] - and wanting to help her achieve her goals. [[spoiler:As they leave her one by one due to death, exile, or betrayal, her rule begins to falter just as quickly.]]

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* TheDulcineaEffect: Daenerys's surprisingly fast military successes in Essos are in large part due to talented strong and skilled warriors falling in love with her - whether it be the person she is or [[RightfulKingReturns the idea idea]] of [[TheHighQueen who she could be]] - and wanting to help her achieve her goals. [[spoiler:As [[spoiler: As they leave her one by one due to death, exile, or betrayal, her rule begins to falter just as quickly.]]
15th Apr '17 7:51:22 PM qazwsx
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* GirlInTheTower:
** Ned ''thinks'' he's rescuing Lyanna from her kidnapper Prince Rhaegar who's locked her in a remote tower... but when he gets to her, she's already [[DeathByChildbirth dying from bearing her child with Rhaegar]], and there are ambiguous implications that her disappearance may have been [[{{Elopement}} voluntary]].
** Val, the so-called "[[TheChiefsDaughter wildling princess]]", is held captive by Stannis Baratheon in one of the towers of Castle Black -- and she is even protected by a (sentient and friendly) giant. When a knight vying for her hand is told that a wildling woman will [[BestHerToBedHer only respect a man who can "steal" her]], Ser Patrek attacks the giant unprovoked, gets promptly ripped to pieces, and causes a hugely consequential increase in tensions between [[PowderKegCrowd the wildlings, the queen's men, and the Watch.]]
15th Apr '17 7:50:16 PM qazwsx
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** Tyrion's demonisation by the commons in King's Landing wouldn't have helped his case with his father after Blackwater when Cersei was able to convince Tywin that most of the preparation and defensive work was her doing. Had the blame for most of the Lannister mistakes been applied to the correct people in the popular mind instead of reaching for the easy "Demon Monkey" scapegoat role they loaded him with, Tywin might have actually taken note and taken pains to include him in later reconstructive efforts. [[TheUnfavourite Well, maybe]]. At the very least, Cersei would not have come out of it quite so glowingly and a whole raft of problems might have been avoided. As it was, Tyrion's perceived failures at curbing the Crown's self-inflicted chaos during the siege using financially and verbally harsh means come back to bite him time and again, [[TheScapegoat blown up out of all proportion]] and scuppering any attempt by all half-competent Lannisters to stabilise the boat ''without'' reaching for the even bigger crackdown-and-take-hostages option. [[spoiler: Tywin, Kevan and Jaime have to resort to this when the wheels start to fall off, if in slightly different ways -- Jaimie and Tywin picking the rather direct versions; Kevan attempting the more diplomatically disguised route.]]

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** Tyrion's demonisation by the commons in King's Landing wouldn't have helped his case with his father after Blackwater when Cersei was able to convince Tywin that most of the preparation and defensive work was her doing. Had the blame for most of the Lannister mistakes been applied to the correct people in the popular mind instead of reaching for the easy "Demon Monkey" scapegoat role they loaded him with, Tywin might have actually taken note and taken pains to include him in later reconstructive efforts. [[TheUnfavourite Well, maybe]]. At the very least, Cersei would not have come out of it quite so glowingly and a whole raft of problems might have been avoided. As it was, Tyrion's perceived failures at curbing the Crown's self-inflicted chaos during the siege using financially and verbally harsh means come back to bite him time and again, [[TheScapegoat blown up out of all proportion]] and scuppering any attempt by all half-competent Lannisters to stabilise the boat ''without'' reaching for the even bigger crackdown-and-take-hostages option. [[spoiler: Tywin, Kevan and Jaime have to resort to this when the wheels start to fall off, if in slightly different ways -- Jaimie Jaime and Tywin picking the rather direct versions; Kevan attempting the more diplomatically disguised route.]]



** Because Joffrey was this trope on legs, it's practically impossible for the Lannisters (who aren't Cersei) and most at Court to [[spoiler: work out who actually killed him.]] Although the story of [[spoiler: Tyrion-and-Sansa is publicly accepted, few buy Sansa's wholehearted involvement]] and it muddies the waters as a result. But, due to the sheer number of other candidate suspects, nobody can find alternative narratives that are closer to the truth. This cloud of uncertainty could play out in many different ways, depending on what happens in the next book. And, not necessarily in Cersei or [[spoiler: Tommen's]] favour, at that.

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** Because Joffrey was this trope on legs, it's practically impossible for the Lannisters (who aren't Cersei) and most at Court court to [[spoiler: work out who actually killed him.]] Although the story of [[spoiler: Tyrion-and-Sansa is publicly accepted, few buy Sansa's wholehearted involvement]] and it muddies the waters as a result. But, due to the sheer number of other candidate suspects, nobody can find alternative narratives that are closer to the truth. This cloud of uncertainty could play out in many different ways, depending on what happens in the next book. And, not necessarily in Cersei or [[spoiler: Tommen's]] favour, at that.



** Aegon the Conquerer and his sister-wives fulfilled their desires to rule the continent of Westeros as a single Kingdom. In the process, they destroyed numerous Great Houses such as Hoare and the Gardeners, and forced each of the kingdoms to yield their sovereignty. From the perspective of their subjects, they were pretty much this trope in distilled form. Yet, in doing so, they unified the realm into one, putting an end to several millenia of intercontinental strife, removed Ironborn control of the Riverlands, and put several much needed reforms into practice. While they did a lot of harm initially, and it's unlikely they conquered a continent for selfless reasons, the Targaryen reign brought a lot of good in the long run, something Stannis Baratheon of all people actually appreciates.

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** Aegon the Conquerer and his sister-wives fulfilled their desires to rule the continent of Westeros as a single Kingdom. In the process, they destroyed numerous Great Houses such as Hoare and the Gardeners, and forced each of the kingdoms to yield their sovereignty. From the perspective of their subjects, they were pretty much this trope in distilled form. Yet, in doing so, they unified the realm into one, putting an end to several millenia millennia of intercontinental strife, removed Ironborn control of the Riverlands, and put several much needed reforms into practice. While they did a lot of harm initially, and it's unlikely they conquered a continent for selfless reasons, the Targaryen reign brought a lot of good in the long run, something Stannis Baratheon of all people actually appreciates.



* AwfulWeddedLife: As a consequence of {{Arranged Marriage}}s being used to form alliances among the nobility instead of for happiness, it's almost inevitabe that these may occur. Unfortunately, ''because'' these marriages take place ''entirely'' between powerful entities that can start bloody wars with one another, the consequences of horrible marriages go from just being painful for the two parties involved, into being triggers for continental civil wars.

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* AwfulWeddedLife: As a consequence of {{Arranged Marriage}}s being used to form alliances among the nobility instead of for happiness, it's almost inevitabe inevitable that these may occur. Unfortunately, ''because'' these marriages take place ''entirely'' between powerful entities that can start bloody wars with one another, the consequences of horrible marriages go from just being painful for the two parties involved, into being triggers for continental civil wars.



** Lysa's obsession with Petyr, compounded with a loveless marriage and resentment about his feelings toward her sister, left her vulnerable to his manipulation. Not only does she [[spoiler: murder her husband and lay the groundwork for a war, she also tries to murder her niece from fear that she might take Petyr away from her, and ends up getting killed by Petyr who was done using her.]]

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** Lysa's obsession with Petyr, compounded with a loveless marriage and resentment about his feelings toward her sister, left her vulnerable to his manipulation. Not only does she [[spoiler: murder her husband and lay the groundwork for a war, she also tries to murder her niece from fear that she might take Petyr away from her, and ends up getting killed by Petyr who when he was done using her.]]



** According to Ironborn custom, Victarion Greyjoy had to kill his wife after she was raped/seduced by his brother Euron. He still loved her and didn't want to kill her, [[HonorBeforeReason but he had to]] and it was the most painful experience of his life. [[spoiler: Now he's trying to steal the woman Euron wants to marry as revenge.]]

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** According to Ironborn custom, Victarion Greyjoy had to kill killed his wife in accordance to Ironborn custom after she was raped/seduced raped by his brother Euron. He Euron (or seduced, as Euron claims). Victarion didn't blame her at all for what happen, rightfully directing all his anger at Euron, and still loved her and deeply. But although he didn't want to kill her, [[HonorBeforeReason but he felt he had to]] and it was the most painful experience of his life. [[spoiler: Now he's trying to steal the woman Euron wants to marry as revenge.]]



** Ned ''thinks'' he's rescuing Lyanna from her kidnapper Prince Rhaegar who's locked her in a remote tower... but, according to popular fan speculation, when he gets to her, she's already [[DeathByChildbirth dying from bearing her child with Rhaegar]], and there are ambiguous implications that her disappearance may have been [[{{Elopement}} voluntary]].

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** Ned ''thinks'' he's rescuing Lyanna from her kidnapper Prince Rhaegar who's locked her in a remote tower... but, according to popular fan speculation, but when he gets to her, she's already [[DeathByChildbirth dying from bearing her child with Rhaegar]], and there are ambiguous implications that her disappearance may have been [[{{Elopement}} voluntary]].



** Daeron I Targaryen managed to succeed where his ancestors failed in subjugating Dorne, but much like Daenerys he WonTheWarLostThePeace, as his substandard handling of the occupation led to the Dornish throwing the Targaryen forces out of the country, with Daeron himself assassinated. By contrast, Daeron II managed to bring Dorne into the fold through diplomacy and a marriage alliance, subverting the Targaryen credo of just using dragons to get what they want. Unfortuantely, the wounds and bad blood left from the wars for Dorne laid the groundwork for the Blackfyre rebellion, showing how just expecting force of arms to solve all your problems and goals can backfire in the long run.

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** Daeron I Targaryen managed to succeed where his ancestors failed in subjugating Dorne, but much like Daenerys he WonTheWarLostThePeace, as his substandard handling of the occupation led to the Dornish throwing the Targaryen forces out of the country, with Daeron himself assassinated. By contrast, Daeron II managed to bring Dorne into the fold through diplomacy and a marriage alliance, subverting the Targaryen credo of just using dragons to get what they want. Unfortuantely, Unfortunately, the wounds and bad blood left from the wars for Dorne laid the groundwork for the Blackfyre rebellion, showing how just expecting force of arms to solve all your problems and goals can backfire in the long run.



* NeverASelfMadeWoman: The series picks this trope apart and shoves the bits under a microscope all across the books. Cersei's arc is where we pick much of the nuts and bolts up, but the real kicker is when her situation is contrasted with other women ''and men'' in the series and the histories. For starters... ''every'' last person with even a hint of power relies predominantly on their social ties to not only inherit it (and/or the knowledge to gain it -- highborns do better in the Faith and the Citadel) in the first place, but also to maintain it while they have it: it's not just the women relying heavily on others' names and ranks as children and adults. However, women get predominantly stuck with the short-end, as they are usually ''only'' seen has being the ties between the ''men'' of linages, and having no politically active agency in and an of themselves -- however good at the game they actually might be, if they got the same training as their brothers and were given credit for what they achieve at, not just condemned when they fail with their particular hardships dismissed as unimportant. Many a women does makes her ''own'' mark on events -- even if it is dismissed and despite having to work in and around this cultural handicap: Olenna, Catelyn, Cersei herself, Daenerys, various Targaryen queens and consorts of either the ruling or supporting variety (both actual Targaryens and others), Great Ladies you hear about from history... many spring to mind. And, their actions are deliberately shown ''not'' to just be an extension or consequence of their fathers', brothers' or husbands' policies and beliefs. They hamper or help plots and plans when they make their ''own'' actions, choices and decisions, whatever training and bloodline they come from -- just like the men do. The major difference lies both in how it's perceived as working at the time, which dictates how it gets recorded.

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* NeverASelfMadeWoman: The series picks this trope apart and shoves the bits under a microscope all across the books. Cersei's arc is where we pick much of the nuts and bolts up, but the real kicker is when her situation is contrasted with other women ''and men'' in the series and the histories. For starters... ''every'' last person with even a hint of power relies predominantly on their social ties to not only inherit it (and/or the knowledge to gain it -- highborns do better in the Faith and the Citadel) in the first place, but also to maintain it while they have it: it's not just the women relying heavily on others' names and ranks as children and adults. However, women get predominantly stuck with the short-end, as they are usually ''only'' seen has being the ties between the ''men'' of linages, lineages, and having no politically active agency in and an of themselves -- however good at the game they actually might be, if they got the same training as their brothers and were given credit for what they achieve at, not just condemned when they fail with their particular hardships dismissed as unimportant. Many a women does makes her ''own'' mark on events -- even if it is dismissed and despite having to work in and around this cultural handicap: Olenna, Catelyn, Cersei herself, Daenerys, various Targaryen queens and consorts of either the ruling or supporting variety (both actual Targaryens and others), Great Ladies you hear about from history... many spring to mind. And, their actions are deliberately shown ''not'' to just be an extension or consequence of their fathers', brothers' or husbands' policies and beliefs. They hamper or help plots and plans when they make their ''own'' actions, choices and decisions, whatever training and bloodline they come from -- just like the men do. The major difference lies both in how it's perceived as working at the time, which dictates how it gets recorded.



* NoTrueScotsman: The Ironborn have a vaguely undefined set of codes as to what constitutes true Ironborn behaviour. In [[BeliefMakesYouStupid Aeron Greyjoy]]'s views, true ironborn are drowned in saltwater as per the religion of the Drowned God, but many Ironborn, not wanting to risk certain death, take a more user-friendly ritual to Aeron's contempt. All of them look down on maesters and book learning but the richest lord of the Iron Islands is [[KlingonScientistsGetNoRespect Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw]]. Balon Greyjoy looks down on Theon Greyjoy for being a "greenlander" but nominates his daughter Asha Greyjoy as his heir, going completely against the macho viking culture he wants to install. Likewise everyone despises Euron Greyjoy for his blasphemy and relative cosmopolitanism, but [[spoiler:he gets voted in as King of the Iron Islands because he has a bigger plunder than any of them have ever seen]]. Victarion Greyjoy despises chattel slavery but has no problem with taking thralls, salt-wives and executing male prostitutes. The idea of a culture being a SingleIssueWonk of RapePillageAndBurn is obviously shown as a ridiculous endeavor.

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* NoTrueScotsman: The Ironborn have a vaguely undefined set of codes as to what constitutes true Ironborn behaviour. In [[BeliefMakesYouStupid Aeron Greyjoy]]'s views, true ironborn Ironborn are drowned in saltwater as per the religion of the Drowned God, but many Ironborn, not wanting to risk certain death, take a more user-friendly ritual to Aeron's contempt. All of them look down on maesters and book learning but the richest lord of the Iron Islands is [[KlingonScientistsGetNoRespect Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw]]. Balon Greyjoy looks down on Theon Greyjoy for being a "greenlander" but nominates his daughter Asha Greyjoy as his heir, going completely against the macho viking culture he wants to install. Likewise everyone despises Euron Greyjoy for his blasphemy and relative cosmopolitanism, but [[spoiler:he gets voted in as King of the Iron Islands because he has a bigger plunder than any of them have ever seen]]. Victarion Greyjoy despises chattel slavery but has no problem with taking thralls, salt-wives and executing male prostitutes. The idea of a culture being a SingleIssueWonk of RapePillageAndBurn is obviously shown as a ridiculous endeavor.



** Cersei masks her cruelty and mental instability with a graceful, dignified appearance, but actually wishes she could be as openly brutal and physically imposing as men can. She resents having to rely on this tacit, despite being good at it.



** Daenerys tries to stop the Dothraki warriors from raping the women of defeated tribes. Since they view those women as spoils of war, she's seen as simply being ''greedy'' by claiming them for herself, so she only succeeds in protecting a handful. Later, one of those women rebukes Daenerys for seeing herself as a hero who "saved" her, when she'd already seen her temple burned, her people murdered, and indeed been raped several times already.
*** Additionally, a girl that Daenerys saves, Eroeh, is ultimately gang raped ''and'' has her throat slit. It's arguable that she would have at least managed to keep her life if Daenerys hadn't intervened. Safety as protection from rape is deconstructed into a question of how one would define "safe"... raped or raped ''and'' dead.

to:

** Daenerys tries to stop the Dothraki warriors from raping the women of defeated tribes. Since they view those women as spoils of war, she's seen as simply being ''greedy'' by claiming them for herself, so she only succeeds in protecting a handful. Later, one of those women rebukes Daenerys for seeing herself as a hero who "saved" her, when she'd already seen her temple burned, her people murdered, and indeed been raped several times already.
***
already. Additionally, a girl that Daenerys saves, Eroeh, is ultimately gang raped ''and'' has her throat slit. It's arguable that she would have at least managed to keep her life if Daenerys hadn't intervened. Safety can't really be defined as protection from rape is deconstructed into a question of how one would define "safe"... raped or raped ''and'' dead. when that protection makes women targets for addition violence.
25th Mar '17 9:05:44 PM Euodiachloris
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** ''Literature/ADanceWithDragons'' establishes that [[spoiler:Varys and Illyrio, the sponsors of Viserys and Daenerys had never intended her and Viserys to be the heir, they wanted their own specially trained claimant, Rhaegar's son who supposedly survived the Sack of King's Landing, Aegon VI, to be the King with Daenerys as his HotConsort, because a male will always come before a woman in the line of succession]]. Buuuuut, because Dany did the unexpected at every turn, she's got a very strong argument she can use in any Great Council to suggest she more closely resemble Aegon, the First of His Name, the Conqueror and rider of the Black Dread -- her position in the line of succession be damned. She's hatched dragons and actually conquered cities, not just dreamed about doing so.

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** ''Literature/ADanceWithDragons'' establishes that [[spoiler:Varys and Illyrio, the sponsors of Viserys and Daenerys had never intended her and Viserys to be the heir, they wanted their own specially trained claimant, Rhaegar's son who supposedly survived the Sack of King's Landing, Aegon VI, to be the King with Daenerys as his HotConsort, because a male will always come before a woman in the line of succession]]. Buuuuut, because Dany did the unexpected at every turn, she's got a very strong argument she can use in any Great Council to suggest that could easily short-circuit standard procedure: she more closely resemble resembles Aegon, the First of His Name, the Conqueror and rider of the Black Dread -- her position in the line of succession be damned. Dread. She's hatched dragons and dragons, flown on one ''and'' actually conquered cities, not just dreamed about doing so.so. Also: big, stonking army + three dragons = bin the rules.
24th Mar '17 4:01:24 PM Euodiachloris
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** Because Jeffrey was this trope on legs, it's practically impossible for the Lannisters (who aren't Cersei) and most at Court to [[spoiler: work out who actually killed him.]] Although the story of [[spoiler: Tyrion-and-Sansa is publicly accepted, few buy Sansa's wholehearted involvement]]. But, due to the sheer number of candidate suspects, nobody can find alternatives closer to the truth.

to:

** Because Jeffrey Joffrey was this trope on legs, it's practically impossible for the Lannisters (who aren't Cersei) and most at Court to [[spoiler: work out who actually killed him.]] Although the story of [[spoiler: Tyrion-and-Sansa is publicly accepted, few buy Sansa's wholehearted involvement]]. involvement]] and it muddies the waters as a result. But, due to the sheer number of other candidate suspects, nobody can find alternatives alternative narratives that are closer to the truth.truth. This cloud of uncertainty could play out in many different ways, depending on what happens in the next book. And, not necessarily in Cersei or [[spoiler: Tommen's]] favour, at that.
24th Mar '17 1:24:44 PM Tianzi
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** Cersei's children having the Lannister looks instead of Baratheon's serves as a "proof" that their father is Jaime Lannister and not Cersei's husband King Robert Baratheon. [[{{Irony}} The funny thing is]] that since Jaime is Cersei's ''twin brother'', the Lannister looks could have been passed down completely legitimately from Cersei herself and not because "the seed is strong" - making it a case of the accusers being RightForTheWrongReasons.
23rd Mar '17 9:46:06 AM Euodiachloris
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Added DiffLines:

** Because Jeffrey was this trope on legs, it's practically impossible for the Lannisters (who aren't Cersei) and most at Court to [[spoiler: work out who actually killed him.]] Although the story of [[spoiler: Tyrion-and-Sansa is publicly accepted, few buy Sansa's wholehearted involvement]]. But, due to the sheer number of candidate suspects, nobody can find alternatives closer to the truth.
16th Mar '17 6:37:45 AM Euodiachloris
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** The Freys were already this before the war, being mocked and looked down upon for being opportunistic weasels. So, if you're already despised, why ''not'' go for broke by waving it about? What can you lose? Well... after [[spoiler:their betrayal of a large number of allies during the Red Wedding]], they are hated by nearly everyone in the Riverlands and the North. Everyone in those regions will validly take the opportunity to kill every Frey they encounter if it presents itself, and people will not think twice when one of them dies. Heck, because many Northern and Riverlands Houses lost men and relatives to them, most break out into very thinly disguised schadenfreude upon hearing of the latest tragedy to befall the Freys -- in front of them. All of this means that, just to govern what they hold, actual Freys have to go out to risk bodily harm while threatening it upon their vassals. Also, even though the Riverlords have officially submitted to the Iron Throne, Jaime knows he can't rely on the people in reality and has to take hostages.

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** The Freys were already this before the war, being mocked and looked down upon for being opportunistic weasels. weasels and glorified extortionists. So, if you're already despised, why ''not'' go for broke by going large and waving it about? What can you lose? Well... after [[spoiler:their betrayal of a large huge number of neighbours and allies during the Red Wedding]], they are hated by nearly everyone in the Riverlands and the North. Everyone Quite a lot in those regions will validly gladly take the opportunity to kill every Frey they encounter if it presents itself, and other people will not think twice when one of them the House dies. Heck, because many Northern and Riverlands Houses lost men and relatives to them, most break out into very thinly disguised schadenfreude upon hearing of the latest tragedy to befall the Freys -- in front of them. All of this means that, just to govern what they hold, actual Freys have to go out to risk bodily harm while threatening it upon their vassals. This is a family which leans more towards the behind-the-desk CorruptBureaucrat end of the slime pool rather than the actively knee-capping enforcer one, remember: they're a bit out of their comfort zone as a group. Also, even though the Riverlords have officially submitted to the Iron Throne, Jaime knows he can't rely on the people in reality to stay quiet, let alone loyal, and has ''has'' to take hostages.hostages (often ones the Freys were holding as collateral) to remind the squabbling Freys and Riverlanders alike who is in charge of them all.
16th Mar '17 6:06:19 AM Euodiachloris
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** Roose Bolton ponders the pitfalls of having such a negative public image that can plague a whole House if even only ''one'' member pushes the envelope. If Ramsay continues being gratuitously StupidEvil right in front of people's faces, the whole House, not to mention the population of the Dreadfort, could be exterminated by the combined effort of the unhappy Northern Houses in less time than it took them both [[spoiler: to work their way into holding Winterfell's lands and titles in the first place.]] And, that whole speculation was made before [[spoiler: the revelations of House Bolton being actively involved in the Red Wedding]] had even started to leak through various sources. [[spoiler: There is a possible plus-side: if that one member of the House is loathed enough, the rest ''might'' get off by throwing him to the wolves and blaming most of the collective monstrosities on him, then citing whatever can be proved of as their own doing as, "We were just trying to protect our own blood -- even if he was an unpredictable, AxeCrazy idiot. Will his head and reparations do?" Maybe.]]
** The Freys were already this before the war, mocked and looked down upon for being opportunistic weasels. Now, after [[spoiler:their betrayal in the Red Wedding]], they are hated by nearly everyone in the Riverlands and the North. Everyone in those regions will take the opportunity to kill every Frey they encounter if it presents itself, and people will not think twice when one of them dies. Heck, because many Northern and Riverlands Houses lost men and relatives to them, most break out into very thinly disguised schadenfreude upon hearing of the latest tragedy to befall the Freys -- in front of them. Also, even though the Riverlords have officially submitted to the Iron Throne, Jaime knows he can't rely on the people in reality and has to take hostages.

to:

** Roose Bolton ponders all the pitfalls of having such a negative public image that can plague a whole House if even only ''one'' member pushes the envelope.envelope a little too far. If Ramsay continues being gratuitously StupidEvil right in front of people's faces, the whole House, not to mention the population of the Dreadfort, could be exterminated by the combined effort of the unhappy Northern Houses in less time than it took them both [[spoiler: to work their way into holding Winterfell's lands and titles in the first place.]] And, that whole speculation was made before [[spoiler: the revelations of House Bolton being actively involved in the Red Wedding]] had even started to leak through various sources. [[spoiler: There is a possible plus-side: if that one member of the House is loathed enough, the rest ''might'' get off by throwing him to the wolves and blaming most of the collective monstrosities on him, then citing whatever can be proved of as their own doing as, "We were just trying to protect our own blood -- even if he was an unpredictable, AxeCrazy idiot. Will his head and reparations do?" Maybe.]]
** The Freys were already this before the war, being mocked and looked down upon for being opportunistic weasels. Now, weasels. So, if you're already despised, why ''not'' go for broke by waving it about? What can you lose? Well... after [[spoiler:their betrayal in of a large number of allies during the Red Wedding]], they are hated by nearly everyone in the Riverlands and the North. Everyone in those regions will validly take the opportunity to kill every Frey they encounter if it presents itself, and people will not think twice when one of them dies. Heck, because many Northern and Riverlands Houses lost men and relatives to them, most break out into very thinly disguised schadenfreude upon hearing of the latest tragedy to befall the Freys -- in front of them. All of this means that, just to govern what they hold, actual Freys have to go out to risk bodily harm while threatening it upon their vassals. Also, even though the Riverlords have officially submitted to the Iron Throne, Jaime knows he can't rely on the people in reality and has to take hostages.
13th Mar '17 3:52:43 PM wedekit
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*** Additionally, a girl that Daenerys saves, Eroeh, is ultimately gang raped ''and'' has her throat slit. It's arguable that she would have at least managed to keep her life if Daenerys hadn't intervened.

to:

*** Additionally, a girl that Daenerys saves, Eroeh, is ultimately gang raped ''and'' has her throat slit. It's arguable that she would have at least managed to keep her life if Daenerys hadn't intervened. Safety as protection from rape is deconstructed into a question of how one would define "safe"... raped or raped ''and'' dead.
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