This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Pulling two Take That! edits from Rebochan, whose vendetta against the comic is well-known:
- All There in the Manual (Someone reading the comic alone and not also following along on the forums where the author explains some pretty important plot points would be completely lost.)
As a regular reader of both the comics and the forums, I can't think of anything especially important that couldn't be inferred from following the comic closely; until someone can come up with a specific example, I'm pulling it.
- Loads And Loads Of Characters (At current count, the cast page lists 26 regular characters with their own plots and a requirement that the reader be aware of all of them at any given time. Even a character bordering on extra could suddenly break out and require the reader's attention be the same as for a main character.)
This one certainly fits, but the parenthetical comes off as, for want of a better word, whiny. I'm just going to shorten it a bit.
(Also, what does "both the implied and the obvious" mean? The "obvious" and the "implied" both seem to refer to Penny/Aggie, making the sentence more than a little redundant...)
Rebochan: Oh yes, I have a vendetta. Indeed. *plops them back on*
Twin Bird: So it's not you that's always complaining about the way the strip treats Marshall? Or frequently goes to the forums to talk about how nothing in the strip could ever happen? (I think those may have been your exact words...)
So when did T Campbell acknowledge that he'd failed in his stated intent to write with the mindset that "most readers never visit the forums"? For that matter, when did the front page have any information whatsoever that couldn't be gotten from the comic? Hell, I can't remember anything you couldn't have gotten from the same storyline.
Or, in other words, I ask again: can you come up with a specific example?
Rebochan: I haven't posted to those forums for some time, so I'm not exactly "always there". Also, he has left a lot of plot points out from time to time, including some biggies like "They actually all go to a private school". That completely changes the dynamic of the strip and the types of students we're seeing since up until that point, the strip appeared to be a public school and nothing was given to us to suggest otherwise. It was also kind of a big deal when the entire reason we learned that plot point was to establish Rich running away because he couldn't pay his tuition - if you hadn't read T. on the forums telling you that, you'd be completely baffled about what tuition had to do with anything. And I'm sorry, if his intent of the front page displaying a summary of the story so far and the characters involved and everything relevant isn't an attempt to prevent "All There in the Manual", what is it? I was actually being fair to him. I know, there's this strange idea amongst the P&A forumites that being critical of the comic means I want T. Campbell to die in a fire. It must be a hard concept to grasp.
And I'm sorry, but having a negative opinion of a strip is not a vendetta. I'm pretty amused by the P&A forumites that have stalked me to TV Tropes though. Or even accused me of hacking the P&A website. That was a pretty funny one.
Twin Bird: Here's the problem. The fact that they went to a private school was never mentioned on the forums, either. Bad storytelling? Sure, but Tropes Are Not Bad. And nothing on the front page has ever come from the forums. Ever. It's all from the comic itself. All There in the Manual specifically specifies supplementary material, i.e., in this case, the Q&A thread. Continuity Lockout? Yes. All There in the Manual? No. Again, a single thing that is (like the examples on All There in the Manual):
- Not shown or strongly implied in the comic itself.
- Stated in a source other than the comic (and if you want to keep the blurb, it has to be the forum).
- Important to understanding a plot point.
And, um...are you talking about this
? Because that really looks like a joke. And it kind of looks like you took it as a joke at the time.
Also, love the paranoia! ("Stalked me to TV Tropes?" Right, because it's such an esoteric site...)
Rebochan: Actually, Tropes Are Not Good either. And yes, the private school thing was mentioned in a Q&A thread on the forums - but not in the comic. So that's all three. I could try and dig up more, but it's been awhile since I tried to follow the comic that closely - and for what it's worth, T. *has* gotten better about things like that.
I assumed the person in that thread you linked was joking, but it's still the same silliness that assumes that because I am critical of the storyline, I *must* want to do things like hack the site or turn TV Tropes into my private anti-Penny and Aggie blog. I also got yelled at over on Wall Bangers by a different forumite over the same thing. So this happening twice isn't my paranoia.
Twin Bird: No. It had not been mentioned that they went to a private school. T did eventually say so in the Q&A thread, but only when people who'd assumed it was a public school were trying to think of other ways to interpret Rich having to leave for want of "tuition money." If you can find and link evidence to the contrary, feel free to correct me. (NB: The strip in question went up October 17, 2007.)
(And "Tropes Are Not Good"? When did I suggest a "good" trope anywhere in this discussion?)
Rebochan: But you just proved my point - the comic itself, even after that Q&A, didn't say it. And if one never read the forums, they'd have never read that Q&A at all and been scratching their heads over it. Also, there's other things like how Karen and Marshall go to a different school (pretty important considering how proximity affects these things). My point about Tropes Are Not Good was...well, you said Tropes Are Not Bad. Some people on this site quote that like crazy. I just like to remind people of the other side of that coin.
Twin Bird: But...only one side of the coin has...oh, forget it. The fact that he had to leave the school due to lacking tuition money seems pretty clear. I mean, honestly, what do you want, t-shirts saying "we go to private school"? It's been clearly shown in the strip that Karen goes to a different school ("gay girls from my school..."), although you may have a point with Marshall...I really don't think not realizing Marshall goes to a different school would leave you "completely lost," though.
Rebochan: There's a lot of ways to establish it, and like I said, it does change the dynamic of the strip, namely because in a public school, you can expect a cross-section of different kids with different incomes. In a private school, you expect richer kids, at the lowest end, upper-middle class. It also explains a greater lack of diversity. In retrospect, this does mean things like a girl wearing a fur stole suddenly seems less strange. But there's really a lot of ways that could have been established ahead of time without beating us over the head - the name of the school, the principle establishing that his school had stricter rules than public establishments, someone talking about tuition well before it was a major plot point... Then if something feels like it came out of nowhere, you can still point to the comic page where someone did, in fact, establish it. The "gay girls from my school" thing was a welcome comment...but he'd said that about her on the forums before that comic ran. And that's rather important, because Karen's limited contact with Penny says a lot more about her obsession with her than if they were actually in contact day after day, plus it also establishes why Karen can manipulate events at Penny's school without suffering any consequences (can't punish someone who's not a student after all). It also explains why nobody knows who Marshal is without actively seeking him out, and how come he does not react to the drama stirred up with Penny. Kind of important, because without that information, there's all kinds of questions (I personally don't get how he could go to Karen's drunken popsicle orgies and not pick up on anything, but whatever). Anyway, you had a point about the purpose of the front page, so I moved that over to Continuity Lockout. Which actually is an example of Tropes Are Not Bad depending on how its handled.
I Like Crows: Pulled this part from Put on a Bus:
- After she already tried to give Karen, who's deliberately hurt her and numerous innocent people, the benefit of the doubt, she's apparently blown off Marshall for good after one fight in which she knows he was manipulated.
It didn't really have anything to do with that trope. In fact, it sounds like an entirely different one. (And remind me: when did Aggie give Karen the benefit of the doubt?)
Rebochan: Right aroudn the time she decided that it was more important to lecture and convert Karen to the side of good than to make up with someone who was trying ot be her friend. In the end of that, she was more willing to be nice and forgiving to Karen than she was to Marshall, who actually was sorry. Hell, it's probably Moral Dissonance. Aggie does *that* a lot too, but the author seems to actually agree with her for some reason.
I Like Crows: Er, you mean at the end of the party? That wasn't being nice, forgiving, or giving Karen benefit of the doubt, that was Aggie lecturing her about loss. Not the smartest thing to do, no, but like you noted she does it a lot. It's one of her major shortcomings/weaknesses (and does in no way mean the author agrees with it, or she'd succeed during her Wall Banger moment in "Suicide Run"). Lecturing someone =/= forgiveness or niceness - hardly a case of Moral Dissonance. Not that Aggie has never invoked the trope, but this isn't one of the times.
As for Marshall? Yes, he was sorry and I feel for him, but that doesn't mean the things he said weren't hurtful or that they'll automatically stop hurting if he apologizes - especially considering that, at the most, only a week passed between then and now. Add that Aggie took them out of the friendzone at the wrong moment, and we have a complicated situation that won't be solved by a simple "I'm sorry" - at least not right now. Which is why I think it's a damn shame that he's been Put on a Bus.
Rebochan: A lot of my frustration with that scene comes out of knowing that really is the last scene for Marshall. Normally you'd expect this to be revisited when tensions and emotions are lower - and the story makes clear attempts at foreshadowing that he misses her company and Aggie still likes him (saving a picture of them), coupled with the numerous unresolved plot threads related to Marshall's life (the mommy issues), so naturally you're expecting follow-up. She does essentially say they need time apart, she isn't telling him to get the hell out of her life. The author's attitude is that he does need to get the hell out of her life and thus he will not show up again. Therefore the scene just makes Aggie look bad. She's a really frustrating character like that.
I Like Crows: Where you got the impression that the author thought that? That's not the impression I got at all:
Even if he never appears? Still doesn't explain how that scene makes Aggie look bad. She's been badly hurt by the guy she confessed she loved, I'd say she's pretty smart for not jumping for a chance to be with him again. The friendship would at the best be awkward and at the worst downright painful for them - not to mention hell to write in a believable way without overdosing on the angst. And that's ignoring people around them, like Penny who witnessed the whole thing.
I wish Marshall could've stayed, I really do, so I completely emphasize your frustration about his bustravelling status but... don't blame Aggie for that. Blame the author.
Rebochan: It was my impression that Aggie was well aware the guy was manipulated. Plus it was just one fight and the whole thing happened because Aggie decided attacking his girlfriend was a great idea. For crying out loud, what kind of person drops a friendship over something she shared equal fault in? Marshall said something quite nasty, but it's not like he was unprovoked, and he gave her reasonable warning that she was crossing into a sensitive area. Still, who was willing to get over it, swallow their pride, and apologize and who is still holding the grudge? It doesn't gel with all of Aggie's speeches about being a better person unless she's being a hypocrite.
There's a lot of things about her that bothered me - she appeared to get her entire hatred of Penny because her mother died (or she used her mother's death to justify it - seriously, what?). She can be really nasty to her friends for no reason (no, not the Helen bit - the part where she shoved Lisa and had to be restrained from attacking Sarah at the mere mention of Marshall). The self-righteous streak hit an apex at the end of this one. Obviously this is all the author since Aggie isn't a real person, but the girl seems to have no balance - really, up until she sat there with Karen beating the crap out of her, I had trouble thinking of a single time when she didn't collapse into a sobbing pile or back down the second any action was required of her. It's almost to the point where Aggie being tough or strong is really an Informed Ability. By contrast, Penny is a well-rounded character with flaws and strengths that are evenly developed and displayed. Maybe part of it is that Penny dominates most of the storylines and Aggie seems to get tugged in out of nowhere and her plotlines are short, under-developed, and don't show many sides to her.
By the way, I got the author's opinion from a different thread where he responded to me. Towards the bottom of this page. He appears to have a much harsher view of things than the comic seems to indicate. He reiterated this again later in the thread to someone else with the same opinion.
I Like Crows: It's clear to me now that we see the events, the characters and what the author says completely different and none of us will be able to change how the other person thinks. I'll just point out that Aggie got called on those "accepting people"-speeches here and hasn't made any more of them since.
Chevalier Malfait: Changed the edit:
Coming-Out Story (Definitely Sara, almost certainly Penny and Aggie, probably Stan, possibly Xena, and Marshall in Fanon.)
to:
Coming-Out Story (Sara and Aggie)
Reason: The edit was simply a list of who in the comic is gay or bi, who might be and, with regard to the last one, whom some in the fandom (in most cases only jokingly) suspect is gay. However, the Coming-Out Story trope is meant to describe a plot thread showing characters in the process of discovering and revealing to others their sexual orientation. To date only Sara and Aggie have had full-fledged plot threads to this effect, as opposed to teasing hints in the cases of Penny and Stan (and Stan is more a case of Subordinate Excuse or If It's You, It's Okay). Xena? Fred thinks she may be gay, but so far we know nothing about her except that she's an, er, Happyology fanatic. As for Marshall, both the comic itself and Word of God make it clear he's straight.
Rebochan: All right, I refuse to delve into the hellhole that is that comic anymore, but did Aggie finally come out of the closet at what appears to be T. Campbells Big Gay High School? I got so tired of him teasing that ridiculous plot thread before I stopped reading it for good.
Twin Bird: "Big Gay High School"? Really? I'll admit the whole thread is abysmal overall, but Fred and Daphne were always lamenting how there weren't any other gay people...so we're left with whom we've seen, namely, Sara, Penny, Aggie, Stan, Cyndi, Lisa, and Xena, out of the entire school of four hundred. You could make a case that they're all too close together, but look back...how did they become close?
Rebochan: That may be a bit far, but for a comic that seems to be doing a lot of coming out stories and obsessing over gay overtones, I've just come to the conclusion that Daphne's stupid pills were just that potent or all the gay students hated her that much.
Actually, my real annoyance is that the comic appears to be descending, as I suspected it might before I stopped for other reasons, into just doing one coming out story after another. And it gets monotonous that many times in a row - and kind of unbelievable too.
Chevalier Malfait: To answer Rebochan's question directly: as of this writing (December 2009) Aggie is out only to herself (as of the end of "There Are No Rules") and to Fred (in the sense that, in the current storyline "Pre-History," when Fred mentioned in passing that a girl in one of his classes set off his gaydar, Aggie asked him to point her out). It's still unclear—even Word of God has admitted as such—whether she's gay or bi.
Also, while the gay/bi characters are indeed becoming more prominent, just for the record there's also an ongoing hetero plotline, namely Penny's and Stan's mutual attraction which neither wants to admit, whether to themselves or to each other. I mention this not as a defence of the increased focus on queer themes—because while I've been enjoying it I fully allow that it may not be your cup of tea, and that's okay—but simply to point out that the comic hasn't become entirely focused on that side of the sexuality spectrum.
As for the overall merits, or lack thereof, of the comic, that's probably best taken to the forums. No, I'm not one of those fans whom you quite properly take issue with for shouting down any and all criticisms; I'm just saying the article discussion page is not the best place for debate as to the comic's overall quality, decline, incline, or bovine. :-) See you in the forums?
Rebochan: Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the discussion page. I was just genuinely curious about a plot point since I ceased reading the strip and let my own issues get the best of me.
