This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Steel Beast 6 Beets: Why do I get the feeling I'm the only one in this site that thinks that Yosuke is douchebag? Seriously, between his endless whinning parade about the Mystery Food X incident and how he used this as an excuse to force both Chie and Yukiko into wearing the swimsuits he brought, his constant jabs to Kanji's sexuality, the fact the embarrased Naoto in from of the entire school during the cultural festival just when she came to terms with starting to accept who she is and him being one of biggest instigators with regards to killing Namatame because he can't just get over Saki's death, practicaly telling us to get the bad ending I have no pity for him.
Hell, in the second circle I'm gonna laugh everytime he gets owned because, as far I am concerned, Yosuke deserves that and much more.
Jotun Of Boredom: More? Even more than "Critical Hit to the nads"? Should I remind you
? That's just harsh, I do admit that he does actually deserve some of the bad things that happen to him(ALSO in order to make those lines that go all the way across the page please use four of - in a row).
Steel Beast 6 Beets: Sorry about the - thing, I keep forgetting that. And indeed the critical hit was pretty harsh but again, the game shows that Chie can be as much of a jerk as Yosuke when she feels like it. Thing is, lil' Chie isn't exactly the brightest bulb in the chandelier and she ends up making a fool of herself quite often ("Don't think, feel!" alright), so this undermines her Jerkass tendencies. To some extent.
Rogue 7: I feel like you can write off the whole bit with Namatame as general stress and freaking out on the part of the whole party (hell, 'cept for Yosuke, I think Naoto was pretty much the other one most in favor of it.), but my reaction to most of the camping trip and various other incidents, particularly with his taunting of Kanji was "Wow, Yosuke's kind of a douchebag." But, dude, he's what, 16? It comes with the territory. If I stopped hanging out with my friends just because they were occasionally douchebags, I wouldn't hang out with anyone. But Chie? Never noticed that she's ever much of a jerk.
Steel Beast 6 Beets: Naoto was the one who suggested throwing Namatame into the TV world so the shadow would take take of him. Yosuke would just ran with it. Also, about the last bit and now that you mentioned it... It's not really surprising that Yosuke's only friends prior to Souji's arrival to Inaba were a girl that both beats him up and takes advantage of him constantly as well as another girl that not only rejected him but also ignores him in a regular basis. It would be safe to assume that everyone else must have seen him as the obnoxious jerkwad he is
Indeed, his relationship with Chie and Yukiko had some heavy And Zoidberd vibes at the beginning. Come and think about it, perhaps this was what happened with Saki. Maybe she truly wanted to be Yosuke's friend... until he reavealed his true annoying nature and started to hit on her. Without any other choice, Saki decided to tolerated the Junes kid just for the money. The rest, as they say, is story.
toalordsothe: I was under the impression the entire point of Yosuke's character was to start out as a douchebag the not be a douchebag. I mean his shadow pretty much said as much. Yukiko's problem was that she was childish, Naoto's was not being true to herself, etc. and the entire point of the game was that they got over it. I saw BROSUKE's douchebagery was just his Crossdressing/Family Ho Yay/etc.
Random: Someone else can edit it, but Teddie's verbal tick wasn't Woolsey'd into puns. In the Japanese version, he made his own puns - the one coming into mind being "komatta" -> "kumatta"
KiTA - I started this page using a lot of Persona3's page as reference. The two games are very similar, using the same engine and more or less the same environment. Some editing will no doubt be needed...
Uknown Troper: Talk about planning ahead... We'll see in December, I guess.
KiTA — heheh. Since the engine can be, at best, described as "Persona 3.5", and the storyline is specifically made up of tropes, I have high hopes to see this one trope overdosed. :)
Jotun of Boredom: Who keeps changing Naoto back to boy when she's really a girl.
EddieVanHelsing: Jotun, it could be somebody who doesn't believe it. All I'll say is that for a boy, Naoto has a very feminine, and very sexy voice.
Rebochan: That bit about Naoto needs to stay spoiler tagged though, considering what a big deal it is in the plot.
Leliel: Is the bit about Shadow Personas really a spoiler? You find out about them in the beginning of the game.
Jotun of Boredom: You're right about that, plus the box art doesn't really do a good job of hiding who's gonna be in your end party.
Rocket Science: And the Protagonist leaving Inaba isn't a spoiler either. It's established right from the start that you're only there for a year, because your parents are working overseas.
KiTA: The Box art NEVER does a good job of hiding who will be in your party. Hey, isn't that a trope in and of itself? When the box art / anime opening / etc etc spoils character choices?
Jotun of Boredom: Is that a trope? Try suggesting it.
Eddie Van Helsing: It is now. I just added an entry for 'See the Cast on the Box' and added examples for P3, P4, Nocturne, and Raidou Kuzunoha vs the Soulless Army.
Jotun of Boredom: I think the name could be more catchy, but otherwise I like it.
Rebochan: So an edit war doesn't erupt - as far as I know, the dungeons are definitely not randomized. I've done a ton of grinding in them and the floors *always* have the same layout even though the map is covered on new runs. This is not just special floors - I haven't found any floors that change from run to run and I've run each of the dungeons from 1st to top floor multiple times doing item and money runs. So just how "random" is this?
Dalantia: Have you changed the day? Have you drawn a Death card? Those two are what causes the dungeon to re-randomize, to my knowledge. I once died four times in, for example, Magatsu Mandala, and wound up with four different first floors there (much to my irritation, because I was hoping that I'd be able to use my knowledge of the floor to slip past critters). It -might-, however, "lock in" once you complete the second run.
Rebochan: Right, I have no idea why, but I finally had a dungeon re-randomize on me last night after drawing Death. For reference...I draw a *lot* of Death cards. It was Void Quest and I had completed it before - the first floor was completely different. It gave me quite a shock. Maybe I never noticed or maybe there's only a set number of "random" layouts?
Dalantia: Huh. Maybe it's that. Or maybe there are more floors excluded from randomization than gimmick floors and boss floors... or maybe it locks certain floors after the initial randomization..
Rebochan: Well, regardless, the trope is obviously accurate, even if the game appears to handle things in a mystical way. Short of hacking the game to figure it out, I'm perfectly willing to say A Wizard Did It.
EddieVanHelsing: I have the spoiler book published by Double Jump. According to that, each dungeon has a set of premade layouts that are randomly picked, with the exception of certain floors (usually the 3rd and the 7th). Drawing the death card, changing the day, or saving your game and shutting down the PS 2 will reset the layout. Otherwise, once you've been through a floor, it retains its layout until you leave TV Land.
Bluer: I'm pretty sure if you exit Dungeon A and enter Dungeon B, Dungeon A's layout will reset too.
Dalantia: Question: At what point does the game actually point out the notion that the Protagonist is these things as listed from the part trimmed (for now) from We Cannot Go On Without You? Izanami's overall demeanor toward the entire thing is that she was bored and trying to shake things up, and that the Protagonist doesn't represent anything. It just apparently latches on to the "Humans Want Instrumentality" thing in the last few moments of its fights, from what I saw.
RedViking: Izanami clearly states this. As you make your way through the level she eventually says: "Why do you resist? I did not do this out of jest." She then goes on an reveals that she gave the power of Persona to three people who represented three aspects and that she did this because she wanted to test what humanity really wanted. Although she never states who represented what, it's completely obvious at that point that Adachi=Emptiness, Namatame=Despair and The Main Character=Hope.
Eddie Van Helsing: Are the characters really calling their attacks when they call out the name of their Persona while summoning them? They don't do it all the time, and they're only calling the Persona's name, not the name of whatever skill they're going to use. Wouldn't this be a subversion, since (in the case of using Izanagi to cast Zio) the protagonist might yell "Izanagi!" instead of "Zio!"? Personally, I think this is an example of the Invocation trope.
Rebochan: I agree - it's the wrong trope.
Eddie Van Helsing: I'll fix it, then. And while I'm thinking over it, has anybody else thought that Lilith's character design is an Expy of Gozer's feminine avatar in Ghostbusters? Oh, wait, that might already be in there.
Rebochan: I noticed someone added it and it was deleted. I myself wonder about that - they're *really* close. And we know these guys like to make the craziest references. On the other hand, Lilith's PS 2 incarnation (she doesn't change at all from Nocturne on) is only different from her earlier incarnations by the hairstyle (and lack of exposed breasts). Compare: Classic
◊(NSFW), PS2
◊, and then Gozer
◊. I think it might just be a coincidence though.
Eddie Van Helsing: I've got all three open in separate tabs now. The old Lilith looks pretty metal, like Kazuma Kaneko was listening to way too much Poison or Whitesnake when he drew her. Hell, she looks like a refugee from Bastard. But as the more I flip between the PS 2 Lilith and that picture of Gozer, the more convinced I am that PS 2 Lilith is an expy of Gozer, or at least a homage to her. It's the hair.
Rebochan: I see what you mean. It's also notable that the pattern of the snake skin on her body looks similar to the...whatever...on Gozer in the PS 2 Lilith. I'd say it's pretty safe to consider it to be a Shout-Out, though we should add a similar note to the Persona 3 article since she's in both games.
Eddie Van Helsing: We would also have to add an entry for SMT Nocturne, and probably one for Raidou Kuzunoha vs The Soulless Army, but I'm almost too stoned on cold medicine to think straight. In fact, I'm casting from HP in order to sound intelligible in this post.
Jotun of Boredom: Does anyone else notice that Izanagi gets more screen time(as well as pictures in the art book) than he really should have? Heck he's the only persona with a spoken line, and even gets more screen time than some human sub characters(Mitsuo for example). I mean he's awesome but.... anyway is there a trope for too much screen time?
Eddie Van Helsing: Dude, he's a god. He can have as much time onstage as he damned well pleases.
Jotun of Boredom: That doesn't stop my friends from commenting on his 'godly' codpiece.
Diddgery: I'm under the impression that it is the fox from the shrine that fills the role of Team Pet, not Teddie. Anyone else agree?
Jotun of Boredom: Makes sense since Teddie is more human than animal, and is more of a mascot anyway.
Red Viking: I was wondering the same thing, really. The fox is kinda like a Team Pet, but at the same time, not really. The fox doesn't really belong, but just kinda does its own thing. It's a cross between the Team Pet and the Loner archetype. Then again, it *is* the Hermit Arcana.
Rutee: I'm sorry, but how is this game under "The computer is a cheating bastard"? I got FAR more criticals then the computer, and I'm running the game on Expert. This is not SMT 3. Heck, even, say, Ameno-Sugiri didn't get a single crit despite Quake Spam, whereas Chie and the MC critted a few times on it.
And on that note, really? EVERYTHING under 'That One boss'? I could figure.. um.. The boss of Yukiko's Castle (I don't know how to do spoilers) and Shadow Mitsuo for it, sorta. The first has a fire attack which can whip Chie and can be rough to get past, particularly without a dedicated Media caster (And even with), and Shadow Mitsuo has Stagnant Air/Evil Smile/Fiendish Wail or whatever the "I kill all feared people" spell is, but everything else, judicious and timed use of guards can be killed easily on the first try. Hell, even then. Basically when someone threatens you, Guard and learn the pattern. Seriously, how is this game remotely close =/.
Eddie Van Helsing: I agree. In fact, I'm more likely to bitch about the computer playing dirty when playing a non-SMT game. I think that the computer even played far in SMT Nocturne. I spoiler-tagged the name of the first castle for you, by the way. I had just played through it on a New Game+ last night; I bought back the Siegfried persona, had Yosuke cast Sukukaja on the MC, had Chie cast Tarukaja on the MC, had the MC do Power Charge, and then had the MC use Blade of Fury. Shadow Yukiko died before she could summon her obnoxious little sidekick.
Dalantia: First: summon Siegfried in a fresh game before the end of Yukiko's dungeon, and no, Yukiko having a dungeon is not a spoiler any more than Mitsuo is. :p Second: my experience agreed with whoever put it there - the computer crits and hits more frequently than the player party. Third: You say they're not cheating.. I say Critters Immune To Knockdown.
Rebochan: I thought the last boss got insane when it used it's own version of "Status + Instant Kill if hit with status". I had no idea that was going to happen and since it automatically gets two turns, I wasn't able to switch my team to guard to prevent getting Status Effects and my main character went down like a rock when the other shoe dropped. Had to start the whole sequence over again. Grrrr. Something easily avoidable, but only after it happens and you know better.
Rutee: You mean Izanami? That one doesn't have a status kill. It's "Kill you at beneath X% HP", and World's End is generally prefaced with a clearly broadcast Mind Charge. You may need to sacrifice Yukiko or Teddie to not die yourself, but not a big deal. And god help the final boss if you picked up, say, Futsunushi's capstone. (The one that reduces damage by half but removes your Evade rate), since that by itself guarantees that she can't Summons to Yomi you. As to critters being immune to Knockdown.. only bosses. I have not found a single peon, including Super Robots and Bosses in Mooks Clothing, who will not go down on a crit. Bosses as a rule are immune to particular status effects in games, so being immune to Knockdown is no more a real complaint to me then "Oh no! I can't Hamaon them down D:"
So... how is "Every last boss" remotely close to true? Heck, Rise and Kanji are insanely straightforward. When the former scans you, set everyone to guard, and keep the one who got hit with a weakness guarding (The more astute players will try and set it up so it's not Yukiko) while the others trash her. She uses plain old Mar-tier 1. T He latter is is "Have Yosuke spam Dekaja while you burn down the Nice Guy ASAP, then have Yosuke play careful". Also, Mitsuo's name isn't revealed until you enter his dungeon (Or it is readily apparent that he /has/ one, anyway). That's why I don't think it's a spoiler, whereas Yukiko is introduced before her dungeon.
Rebochan: This involves nothing trope related, but just game discussion. Big ol' spoilers ahoy. Who else cheered when King Moron died? This troper was praying that he'd either turn out to be a boss fight or a murder victim. Oh Atlus, first you set a guy on fire for me, then this. You always know just what I want!
Eddie Van Helsing: Oh, yeah. When I got to the part where Morooka got whacked, my wife and I looked at each other and said in unison, "He had it coming." I mean, the guy looks like a child molester and walks like he's got the Amazon rainforest crammed up his ass. I almost felt bad about capturing Mitsuo. And, speaking of Atlus delivering the goods, did you see the second form of the True Ending's final boss? Talk about a CMOA.
Rebochan: Seriously, that was incredible. Honestly, I'm a big fan of Mega Ten, but I did not think this was going to top Persona 3. It topped Persona 3. Everything played out just right. Oh, and about Moron, I had a friend who hates JRPGs watch me play the first few hours. Now I'm not allowed to spoil *anything* for him because he wants to play through it next. I've had to sit on that spoiler for weeks now! It's killing me.
Eddie Van Helsing: My wife bought me this for Christmas since we both loved Persona 3, Digital Devil Saga, and Nocturne. Neither of us have been disappointed, except for the fact that I could only play when she was around to watch (unless I happened to be in the middle of a dungeon crawl).
Jotun of Boredom: I love the game, anybody else think Naoto and Kanji (personality and battle wise) are awesome? Though I've heard people complain about Kanji's fighting skills though, even though he's obviously a tank an should be used as such. I actually felt bad after the "Moron Incident", specifically because I talked to an NPC who said she noticed that: not even the teachers liked him, a lot of people thought he was the murderer, and the reason he was a dick because he was probably just lonely.(I mean look at those teeth, he must have been bullied as a child a heluva lot)
Red Viking: Kanji is made of awesome and the dude cracks me up. If it wasn't for Chie's Power Charge/God Hand combo (and her Galactic Punt), I never would have taken him out of my party. Naoto is amazing in combat against everything except for bosses. Naoto's my favorite character, but I admit that she can come across as extremely one dimensional at times. It's a good thing she gets fleshed out if she's being romanced. I do wish there were more scenes with her before she joined since she joined so late in the game though. After she did, she pretty much defaulted to the female lead as if to make up for being absent for 2/3rds of the game.
Diddgery: ...Okay, is it just me, or is Rise doing the Haruhi dance in the opening?
Eddie Van Helsing: It does look a bit like the Haruhi dance, but it might not be exactly the same. It might just be the "Pop Starlet Wiggle".
Red Viking: I have a question about Naoto's true identity. It's kinda obvious so why are we still spoiler-tagging it anyway? To me, it seem like it should fall under You Should Know This Already. Or do you think it's still too soon?
Rebochan: Too soon, especially because The Reveal is at nearly the end of the game. That's pretty much standard for spoilers of late game content.
Treguard: Why is Adachi being the killer such a surprise? I pegged him right after Rise's disappearance. When he went out of his way to arrest a member of the Papparazi, making a big show of the random being guilty, and being the only person alone with her right before she disappeared. I mean, I know Police Are Useless but they're not *that* useless.
Rebochan: I thought it was pretty heavily foreshadowed myself and was quite sad that the options related to Policeman and police cars were just red herrings to make Namatame more of a surprise and he was *still* a red herring in the ending.
Uknown Troper: Let's just say that anyone who's played Persona 3 will likely not be fooled for a second. This Troper pegged him with the nickname "EVIL" and would spend his time doing voiceovers for the MC whenever Adachi said something, to the effect of "Oh, I bet you'd just *love* for us to go along with that, wouldn't you... EVIL?", to the great amusement of any onlookers who thought he was just paranoid. Who's Laughing Now??
Dalantia: I played Persona 3, and to me, Adachi didn't really have anything pointing at them, as opposed to "Genre Savvy let's throw in the M. Night Shyamalan twist". Adachi seemed an idiot and too eager to try to close his case, but well-meaning. And let's not forget that criminal investigation does not have a process of elimination that begins with "everyone in the town", and includes eliminating anyone that has a mystic connection to you. (Nor does it demand Genre Savvy within the bounds of a specific video game series.)
Rebochan: Criminal investigation nothing, the player should know how to use the process of elimination when the list of suspects includes a bunch of people that couldn't possibly do it without breaking the game mechanics somehow. Adachi was also consistently at the right places, and always had the right beat and the right info. It's a little too convenient. Plus the game's constant references to the police and their inability to solve the investigation - as you find out, Adachi was literally the instigator of that as well.
Adachi also gives off an Ikutsuki vibe and we all know how he turned out.
Dalantia: Thank you for using your first and lines to agree with me. :p While yes, in hindsight, Adachi could have been in all the right places, it was never noticed/pointed out as such until after you'd already guessed at him being the murderer. All of the information pointing to Adachi only comes to light after it becomes relevant, in fact. I resent that pretty vigorously, and I also resent the sudden switch to game logic instead of normal logic.
Jotun of Boredom: Does Izanagi's true form count as a Persona? Since it is the MC's true self it can't be a persona right(would explain why it can't show up in the compendium)? Since a Persona is a facade made to 'cover' the true self.
Tinweasel: Given the origin of the Persona of your other party members as the stuff beneath their public facades, it's safe to say that being the MC's true self doesn't do a single thing to prevent Izanagi-no-Okami from being classified as a Persona.
Jotun of Boredom: Actually Shadows are what's under the facade of a Persona, the ego is what makes the shadow into a Persona but the ego is not the facade all its own. The goal of the True Self (under Jungian psychology)is for the ego and the shadow to become one completely, instead of the ego just controlling a shadow. When that occurs a person's inner self and outside personality are completely the same and thus they have nothing to hide.
Diddgery: My brother was playing a couple days ago and picked up a book that I had never seen before due to a social link. I don't recall exactly what the book was or how he got it, but the book was described as being a "ploddingly written romantic comedy" about a girl who moves to a new town. "Vampires are involved." The game then describes the book as "painful to read," causing it to increase your Diligence. Would this be a Take That! towards Twilight?
Red Viking: Oh wow, I didn't make the connection until just now. Twilight isn't the only ploddingly written romantic comedy out there about a girl who moves to a new town where vampires are involved, but given the timing, it most likely is a Take That!.
Cybele: Holy crap. I never got that item (never really bothered with spending holidays with Social Links). If this is true, Atlus is truly Made Of Win.
Rogue 7: This game is making me buy a Playstation 2. Just sayin'.
Cybele: Do it! Doooo eeeeeeet! The power of Social Links compels you! ^_^
Rebochan: Hey Its That Voice is crazy long. There has to be some way to clean it up without wrecking the entertainment value of the example as it is...
Rogue 7: I'd say just stick a folder around it. Also, something to note- I'm looking at a picture of Chie's evolved Persona. That weapon has to be a Darth Maul homage. It has to be.
Nightraid: Did the list of shocking swerves really have to be deleted ? I know you probably don´t want to spoil people too bad, but don´t you think something like "contains major spoilers, do not read unless you want to be spoiled about the real culprit ?" would´ve been enough ?
ninjacrat: It wasn't spoilers, it was natter.
Nightraid: Well, then how about rewriting the content so it doesn´t qualify as natter anymore ? I think just deleting it all was a bit drastic (no offense, just sayin´). (Edit): Thank you ^^
Nightraid: Do you think Naoto wearing a schoolgirl uniform in her S.Link's christmas event counts as She Cleans Up Nicely?
Kalle: No clue, but I'm probably not the only one that thought that that made the Optional Sexual Encounter implications more blatant than they already were. That, and the line about the watch when it fades to black. xD
Comonad: Does the What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic? entry really fit here? The shadow boss fights are heavy on symbolism, sure, but it's not random symbolism at all.
empressdots: Not to mention there's surprisingly little religious symbolism for an SMT game.
KiTA: Symbolism doesn't have to be religious, and there's lots of non religious symbolism.
Comonad: Plenty of symbolism, sure, but it's not "random symbolism as an afterthought to add (illusory) depth and meaning to an otherwise-standard story" (as the What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic? entry says) at all. It's completely integral to the setting, given that the symbolic fights take place in the collective unconscious and all. Not all symbolism is What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic?. I'm going to go remove the example.
Won Sab: Shouldn't the Shadows be filed under A Chat with Satan rather than Hannibal Lecture?
Silverevilchao: I disagree. The Shadows are saying what they say specifically to get under the skin of the person, much like how a villain giving a Hannibal Lecture does.
Won Sab: Still, the two aren't mutually exclusive; would including it on the page be out of the question?
Adaishot: Calling Saki an asshole victim seems a bit unnecessary. Her crimes basically amount to being nice to a person she may not have liked very much, taking a job so she could leave a town that made her miserable, eating her brother's cream puffs, and acting as self-centred as any seventeen year old girl would. It's never even confirmed in-game whether the things said in the TV world are her true feelings or just a representation of Yosuke's insecurities.
