This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Man Called True: Not to be a spoilsport, but isn't the line "Then you must chop down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring"?
Morgan Wick: Surprised at the overuse of "subversions" by experienced contributors. Ununnilium, of all people, seemed to see the Neoquest case as a subversion, when it seemed to me to be simply played straight. Osh seeing FFX as a subversion is less surprising.
Ununnilium: It seems like a humorous example to me - the bureaucrat who won't budge on regulations even at the cost of her own life. Of course, I've never played Neoquest II - can someone who has help out here?
Tabby: It's only a subversion if the trope doesn't happen. If the Neoquest II example is a modified trope at all, it's Lampshade Hanging, and when I added the example I chewed over it for a while before deciding it didn't even go far enough to merit that distinction.
Ununnilium: Not quite, but all right.
RedBeardSean: in the Metroid example, what does the word "reouted" refer to? Is this supposed to be "much touted", or "renowned", or just a word I'm unfamiliar with?
Red Shoe: I think it means "Red Shoe oughtn't to trope after midnight." I'm not actually sure what word I wanted there. I think it may have been "reputed".
RedBeardSean: Ah! That does make sense. I would've corrected, but reputed didn't occur to me.
Seven Seals: That "explanation" in Metal Gear Solid 3 cracks me up. They don't give him any equipment because they might find out he's American? Sometimes the handwave is worse than the plot hole it's supposed to cover up...
Ununnilium: Makes perfect sense to me, considering the Cold War mindset.
YYZ: I think it's called Plausible Deniability. If he gets caught and doesn't have any American-made equipment on him, the Army/Navy/whoever it is can disavow any knowledge of his actions. Of course the enemy won't believe that this guy was acting alone, but without him carrying standard-issue equipment there's no way they can disprove it.
Ununnilium: Indeed. Just like how John Wilkes Booth couldn't rat on the Martian scout parties due to the memory modification.
Seven Seals: I think you're missing my point. The idea that any nation would send in an operative on a secret mission with no resources at all as if it's the only alternative is ludicrous. They don't have to give him a big six-shooter that says "Made in the USA" on the bottom, after all! Even if he had some equipment with an origin that could be traced, it should be trivial to disavow any responsibility for this man that nobody's ever seen in their entire life, who's carrying unregistered equipment that apparently originates from the black market... Etcetera, etcetera.
That they would go to some lengths to keep his origin secret is plausible. That plausible deniability would be used as an excuse to send someone on a combat mission without equipment is not.
Ununnilium: Damn, I can't find it by Wikipedia or Googling. But I could've sworn I saw something on TV the other day talking about soldiers who actually did this.
Seth: Didn't it used to be standard practice to arm special ops with Chinese or Russian ammunition so that it couldn't be traced back to America? I have no clue where i heard this but i think i saw it on some documentary years ago. (Reliable sources the backbone of research, my sources the backbone of snails)
Changeling: Well, this handwave would be much more credible if Snake wasn't equipped with a helmet marked with "US ARMY" in big white letters...
Nevrmore: Helmets and the plot holes they fail to cover aside, I think this explanation is more than suitable. Naked Snake was trained by the best warrior in the world who was pretty much singlehandedly credited for winning the Battle of Normandy, plus both of them were acknowledged as the creators of CQC, an incredibly simple and competent fighting style that shuns the use of anything more than a knife. Considering that the entire world was pretty much sure that Russia was looking for the tiniest of reasons to start nuclear holocaust and that all Snake would conceivably have to do to find a suitable weapon was introduce some Soviet schmuck to the ground, I really don't think it's that hard to see why they'd opt to send him in without anything as conspicuous as an American made gun (again, large, white letters aside)
Man Called True: Can anyone think of a Survival Horror game that even had "shopkeepers"? (Barring Robert Kendo from Resident Evil 2 - he didn't sell anything, just got sexist towards Claire and got et.)
Andyroid: There's the weird, inexplicably British robed guys from Resident Evil 4.
Man Called True: And they're the only ones I can think of. One game isn't enough to merit mention in the article, since that's really just an exception. And for the record, I think that was a really poor attempt at a Spanish accent.
Changeling: Dino Crisis 3 had terminals to upgrade weapons and to buy ammo. I think it counts (in terms of gameplay) as shopkeeper.
Nezumi: But Dino Crisis 2 and 3 were pure action games.
Citizen: Hmmm... I wonder if this can be tweaked a little, to move it beyond just the "king"... The Resident Evil shopkeepers is getting there... This could easily be made to fit: Adam Smith's Revenge: By the end of the game you are renowned everywhere as the Legendary Heroes, every surviving government and authority figure has rallied behind you, the fate of the world is obviously hanging in the balance, and out of nowhere random passers-by give you a pat on the back and heartfelt good luck wishes. However, shopkeepers won't even give you a discount, much less free supplies for the final battle with evil. DancingrageRolled up a new trope to deal with bastard marketeers. It's called Adam Smith Hates Your Guts and apparently while I am happily enjoying Alcomahol it seems to be catching on. If the shoe fits, do what needs to be done.
HeartBurn Kid: Axed the Natter on MGS 3:
- It still doesn't make sense, is it really that hard to go though the trouble of getting him a Soviet weapon?
- This was the Cold War. Given how many questions and how much hassle the United States would raise by smuggling a Soviet weapon out of the Soviet Union... yes, it would be that hard.
- No, sorry, it doesn't make sense. The USA had and has tons of Soviet small arms and other equipment. First off, most Eastern Block nations had people that would be happy to black market anything that could be smuggled across a border. Secondly, the USSR also sold and gave away tons of stuff to Third World nations as well. In Real Life, especially during Vietnam, when the CIA or other people wanted to send someone who they will deny is American, they outfit them from "sterile" warehouses that contain weapons and gear from Soviet and neutral nations.
DancingrageAw, nuts, just doing a bit more research about a trope I'm writing up and came across this gem while looking up stuff for Adam Smith Hates Your Guts. Wouldn't mind somme input on if I'm being redundant here or not (it seems not at this point, since the trope I wrote seems to deal with the ongoing game state, while With This Herring seems to deal only with how you start out with barely a loincloth.) Input here or at the discussion page for Adam Smith Hates Your Guts would be appreciated, thanks!
Zaranthan I went ahead and cut the comment about Halo supposedly starting with a pistol with unlimited ammo. Not only does Master Chief have a fairly small pocket for pistol bullets, but just like Keyes says, it's not loaded. You just happen to scavenge a few clips off a dead security guard ten seconds after you get the gun.
Robin Zimm: I like the text, but it's Adam Smith Hates Your Guts:
- A rather silly example, possibly meant as subversion: in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, There Are No Tents, so you need to pay to stay at the Trauma Inn; however, this applies even when the group Mario is with is shipwrecked on an island, and the "inn" is a makeshift tent made from the ship's sails.
- The third Mario & Luigi game pulls a similar thing; after the hero and a number of NP Cs get stranded inside Bowser's body, what is the first thing those NP Cs think to do after you save them? Set up a makeshift "town" in which they harness the natural resources and then promptly charge Mario for their use. (I believe some of the NP Cs in question even hung a lampshade on it with throwaway comments along the lines of "hey, gotta make a living".)
