Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Working Title: Emotional Manipulator/Passive-aggressive: From YKTTW

Fanti Sci: Yikes. Did we have two "initial versions" of this trope at the same time? YKTTW let me launch it, and it went to the blank "describe Manipulative Bastard here" page when I started...but the page history suggests otherwise.

Etrangere: I'm not sure what you mean, but when you launch a trope the discusson occuring in the ykttw is stocked into the discussion page... does that help?

Fanti Sci: Well, I was able to launch the YKTTW discussion and name it. No worries though - my screwy internet connection is probably to blame. It cut out while I was writing up (and I'm nightmarishly long-winded...) so maybe it caused an overlap. Lale, hope you don't mind me slotting in odds and ends from my version to yours.

Lale: I didn't think anyone was working on it because the page wasn't checked out.

On another note, Gendo Ikari is The Chessmaster. He only gets to Shinji because of the "Well Done, Son!" Guy trope. The characters of Evangelion are so screwed up, they're perfectly capable of messing with their own emotions.

Etrangere: Oh, that's what happened. IMHO the different kinds of manipulative bastards :
  • The cold, analytical guy expert in psychological asessment of people and in the Hannibal Lecture. That's where I'd put Gendo Ikari in. They're very good at really, really pissing off people and hitting their sorest points.
  • The passive agressive ones, which we discussed.
  • The Obfuscating Stupidity ones and Bunny-Ears Lawyer. Using their stupidity as a mask to lead people one, or to distract them.
  • The Casanova / The Vamp, who use sex
  • The Con Man, the expert :)
... there's probably others, but these ones need to be addressed.

Fanti Sci: Lale, like I said, no worries. I'm still in the dark ages with a dialup connection that randomly cuts out on me, so the wiki probably didn't register the trope as checked out because as far as it was concerned, I wasn't there. Anyway, your version's more concise, so it works out ^_^. I'll just have to remember to quit and re-enter the trope when my connection dies. I was just worried someone looked at the history page and thought "Hang on a minute, what the heck's happening?"

With regard to what a Manipulative Bastard is, I think the defining factor is that they enjoy messing with people - it's not just a means to an end. In the end, the victim is emotionally damaged rather than just left feeling stupid for being duped. Gendo Ikari's sort of borderline - it's not clear whether he crushes people because he doesn't care, or whether he enjoys it.

Lale: Yeah, the connection at my mom's is the same. As to Gendo, he's insane, has no perspective, and can seem heartless, but he doesn't manipulate for the joy of manipulating. And he doesn't manipulate by playing with emotions as much as with lies and deceit. He tricks everyone because he's the head of a Government Conspiracy covering the truth, not because he's super-charismatic and knows which buttons to push, except with Naoko and Ritsuko, which would make him a male Vamp. He never exploits Shinji's desire to please him but gets him to obey him by blackmail.

Alan: Could Neji from Naturo fit in to this trope? He sure seems to start out like this though he get's over it a bit too quick.
Juice Box Hero: Added the Phoenix Wright quote. 'Course, Matt's more of a Smug Snake, but the quote itself fits this trope perfectly.

Diddgery: As well as the quote fits, the fact that it's broken up repeatedly with spoiler text kind of... pointless, really. I know that the only things missing are names, but without the names it doesn't read naturally enough to work as the first page quote on a page that is linked to often.
HeartBurn Kid: If somebody wants to alter this to be less "Paul Heyman is evul and horrible and I hate hate hate him!", go ahead and do so and put it back in. While you're at it, fix the spelling and grammar — some people apparently need to realize that they are not I Ming.

  • Former ECW president and Smug Snake extraordinaire Paul Hayman fits this troop to a tee. He stole most of his ideas from other promoters like The Sheik, Joel Goodhart, and Atsushi Onita and was not only able to convince his fans that they were his ideas but that if anyone else used them they were stealing from him. He was also able to convince them that they were watching only high quality wrestling and that the WWF and WCW wrestlers were crap while he made stars out of people like Public Enemy and 911. Then there is the way he treated his wrestlers which made them loyal to him despite the fact he did not pay them for the last 6 month. Even though most people that worked for him relies what a bastard he was in retrospect he still has a strong Creator Worship following today despite his all his failures in the industry

Heartbreak Really that is how you interpreted it, and I was afraid that it was to close to gushing about how great Hayman was at manipulating people. All of that is true and is a complement to how good he was at this troop I do not see any problems with my description of it, but if you do you can fix it but do not delete it ok.

HeartBurn Kid: Well, for starters, I don't think I've ever seen Heyman claim that he invented everything in ECW from whole cloth, like you seem to be saying. Second, Public Enemy were really pretty damn good Garbage Wrestlers, and 911 was only over because Paul knew how to hide his weaknesses; that had nothing to do with manipulating the fans, it had to do with good booking. Third, ECW's product, as a whole, actually was much better than New Generation-era WWF and pre-Cruiserweight Division WCW, so that really doesn't take much convincing. Fourth, merely getting people to take a pay cut to work for ECW doesn't make one a Manipulative Bastard. (Restored:) Fifth, you still need to learn proper spelling and grammar; frankly, I'm getting sick of having to go through the wiki and clean up your messes. You are writing for public consumption. Act like it.

Heartbreak: You have never heard Hayman talk about how ECW originated the hardcore style that was later stolen by Vince and Eric, have you ever listened to any of his promos. What you call good booking was Hayman manipulating the crowed to make them believe that that people like 911 were good wrestlers. However while ECW did have some good wrestlers and matches it was not as great as fans seem to remember it as for every Dean Malenko there were about 5 Hack Meyers. Even though they wrestled a different style ECW was on-par with or maybe a little lower than the big 2. Hayman did not just give the wrestlers pay-cuts he did not pay his wrestlers for several month yet they still worked for him. However besides all that Hayman did make ECW seem special at the time and there are dozens of people (including you Heartburn) that reveled in all he did, if he was not such a horrible businessman he probably would be considered a Magnificent Bastard.

HeartBurn Kid: Do not mess with my comments again. I meant what I said about paying attention to what you write.

ECW seemed special because it was special; it took a lot of disparate influences, and a lot of overlooked talent, and tied them together under 1 roof. It was the "three-ring circus" in a way Vince could only dream of. You had the old-school mat classics, you had the garbage wrestling, you had the lucha libre, you had the Japanese strong style, you basically had the entire freaking world of wrestling under the roof of a bingo hall in South Philly. And with booking that respected the audience to boot. You're god damn right I reveled in it; if you didn't, you weren't a wrestling fan. ECW is remembered for the crazy hardcore shit, but that was never the entire thing; if it was, CZW and XPW would have been the new cult favorite, not ROH.

And as for good booking being "manipulating the audience", no more so than a good director getting a great performance out of a bad actor. And if you'd call that manipulative, then I'm begging Vince McMahon to manipulate the audience a little more, because, from where I'm sitting, John Cena stinks on toast.

And dozens? Try thousands.

Heart Break: It is true that ECW did have all those types of matches, but with the exception of the Garbage Wrestling so did the big 2 but the mutantís clamed that matt wrestling were slow and boring, that strong style was not really wrestling and that high flyers were just Spot Monkey with no real skills. It was the hardcore aspect which set ECW apart and the fact most fans did not see it every week they only saw the best parts of it. After they got a national deal and people saw that they did not really do double flaming table leg drops every week Haymen was able to convince the fans that it was the networks fault, and not the fact that it would have been imposable to keep that level up all the time. I loved ECW like I did WWF and WCW but the wrestling was not what made it special it was the atmosphere Haymen created. While I never got the opportunity to go to the Bingo Hall when I went to an ECW event it was different then with other wrestling companies with more raved fans then I have ever seen which is a testament to Paul E.

And as where youíre sitting appears to be in the position of a Kool-Aid drinking mutant that hates any one popular. I have been a Cena fan since I first saw Prototype wrestle in OVW and he was a favorite of the IWC with them saying he was to small to ever get over with the majority of fans until he proved them wrong. Strangely they then turned on him claiming that they hated him and always have and every body else douse to despite the fact he is a good solid and skilled wrestler able to do both the strong man and matt styles kind of like a more charismatic Bret Hart.

I have been told I am to nice when it comes to wrestling but people like you tend to be cruel to anyone that is popular and hate people that defend them, it makes my Heart Break

Some Sort Of Troper: I was thinking of adjusting the page so that the subtropes were organised so that they could go into a more indexable form. A couple of them aren't really subtropes (I'm thinking mostly of the Bunny-Ears Lawyer which come to think of it, really wouldn't be a Bunny-Ears Lawyer if it was all an act) while some share one bullet point so there'd be some movement around. Thoguhts?