This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
This is "Jerkass Stu" and "Tsundere Sue" lumped together. Once some cleanup gets done, those other two can be converted to redirects.
Rebochan: I cleaned up the huge messy introduction into something more concise. The old intro took up about half the page.
Silver2195: Removed Temari. It's not true that she never loses (she lost to Sasuke), her fight with Tenten is barely shown in the manga, and she's much less of a jerk than her brothers anyway.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: The Least I Can Do/Rayne entry has been justified to heck. Someone please double-check to see whether just the justifications or the whole shebang should be deleted?
Farseer Lolotea: To the person who put the following justification back on the World Of Warcraft entry:
- What the above rantings fail to mention is that prior to these events Varian had pushed for diplomacy with the orcs on more than one occasion, however they have been attacking and betraying the Alliance for a significant period of time up to and including Wrath of the Lich King. The comparison to Thrall is also flawed, as even though he's extended the hand of peace multiple times, Varian has only ever seen the worst orcs have to offer - losing his kingdom, family and friends to the race. Thrall, on the other hand, has had a great many a human extend friendship to him and was never subject to human armies invading his homeworld on the backs of demons. Varian Wrynn is, ultimately, only a Jerk Sue if you insist on ignoring his considerable backstory and motivation.
There's a reason I removed that. It's conversation in the main page and it belongs here (or on the Just Bugs Me page...or the WMG
page).
And justifying your justification, as follows:
- ((Also, can we not delete this for the sake of 'Just Bugs Me' unless the two others above are also moved there? Seems incredibly petty))
...only serves to make it even more nattery.
For the record: It was not removed because it "just bugged [this troper]," as you seem to be inferring; it was removed for being a justifying edit. Quite a bit of Varian's "backstory and motivation" which you cite was made up or contrived on the spot for Wrath and/or the comic. (And some of your justifications are inaccurate, but that's another can of worms.)
And as for his getting "called out" for being an ass? The only person who's come anywhere near doing so, in-game, is Jaina Proudmoore...who, as a result, seems to be coming under suspicion of treachery. (Unless you count Rhonin breaking up the fight in the Ulduar trailer...and not only is Rhonin yelling at everyone, but Varian gets the last word in.) There's no rule that says that being challenged exempts one from being a Sue; a Sue's challengers simply can't be in the right.
Hell, it could just as easily be argued that the Horde is getting pushed back into the bad guy role to accommodate Varian in this expansion pack.
poptart_fairy: Whacked the entry altogether and rewrote it. The original came off as a bitter Horde fanboy who'd just a forum debate on the issue (seriously, 'conan the weeabo' and 'Alliance fanbois' isn't natter, but asking people to look at Varian's backstory as a whole is?). It was based more on personal dislike rather than, y'know, anything too substantial. Added why the playerbase at large would dislike him.
poptart_fairy: Ninja editing the entry to continue your whinge about the character is a rather limp way to 'expand' an entry BTW, Lolotea. Can you post by your own standards and take the rabid anti-Varian nonsense to Just Bugs Me? Disliking a character doesn't make him a Jerk Sue. If that was the case, god knows the entire cast of Warcraft would have ended up on this page.
Farseer Lolotea: Spoken like a true fan. That was hardly "ninja editing," "whinging," or "rabid." And the way that he's handled in the comic is not "subjective." Read the damn comic before you go making accusations.
poptart_fairy: I have read the comic. You keep whinging about the quality of the comic though, rather than commenting on the events (which have been received both positively and negatively - making their acceptance subjective - and have not been the result of 'many' retcons). This is the last time I'm going to make an edit however, as it's clear you're not going to make any entry on Varian without completely demonising him. If you're THAT determined to put so much effort into portraying him as a Jerk Sue, be my guest.
Farseer Lolotea: You ruin your credibility by insulting your opponent. Stating that something that you happen to like is poorly written is not "whinging," either. (By the way...the negative receptions of that comic far outweigh the positive. And the comic is, unfortunately, considered official lore.)
There are, in fact, reasons why people consider Varian a Jerk Sue. (Yes, yes, subjective...the entire damn Mary Sue concept is probably subjective to some degree or another.) You don't change that by whitewashing his jerk traits into utter triviality and completely omitting all mention of his Sue traits. If you're going to do that, you might as well delete the entry altogether.
P.S.: Regarding my status as an alleged "bitter Horde fanboy" ? My main is a draenei—hooray for generalizations. And about how you're stopping your little edit war? I'm holding you to that.
—-
Orihime: Could someone please re-write this one so it sounds less like character bashing? It does bring up some points, but they're all buried in the middle of the HUGE blocks of text and the Akane hate.
- While Akane Tendo of Ranma ½ is often portrayed as one of these in fanfiction (ironically by both both "Pro-Akane" and "Anti-Akane" writers), it possible for her to come off as one of these in the original manga and anime. One of the main elements is the fact that, whenever she gets into a fight with Ranma, it's very rare for her to admit to being the one who did wrong, and even then it only happens if she comes to the decision herself. Everyone else, besides Ranma's other fiancees (for obvious reasons), puts all the blame on Ranma himself and either demands he apologise (Soun & Genma), attacks him for upsetting her (Kuno) or do both (Ryoga).
- Situations like the anime episodes "Shampoo's Red Thread of Dread!" (where Akane sees Shampoo slip a Red String of Fate onto Ranma's hand and believes that Ranma's sudden declaration of love is natural- and then insists that it's all Ranma's fault even after she is made to admit the truth, culminating in her belting him across the face at the episode's end for being unaware of what was going on while he was enchanted) and "Ranma, You're Such a Jerk!" (where she pretends to run away from home, causing the whole household to spend all night looking for her, and feels not the slightest hint of guilt for causing such panic- and receives no reprimands from anyone; Ranma starts to give her one, then breaks off when she sneezes) don't help.
- Nor do manga stories like the introduction of Miss Hinako, where Akane is shown ignoring Ranma's outright, straightforward explanation of his behavior, complete with showing her the chart with the details on the pressure points he's trying to hit, to instead accuse him of just wanting to cop a feel of Hinako. After she sends Ranma flying for accidentally commenting that her breasts are kind of small while trying to rebut her claims, she is shown persisting in her insistence that Ranma's behavior is due to him being an sex maniac.
Lostlibrarian: the final fantasy XI entry is way too long and rant-y, but i don't know enough about the subject to clean it up. Also, the response right after it somehow manages to be one of the creepiest comments I've seen on this website- please tell me I've got this wrong, but to me the writer seems to be saying a sizable portion of the FFXI fanbase are pedophiles.
Idler: I dispute the inclusion of Monk and Franziska Von Karma, because in both cases it's acknowledged within the story that they're extremely difficult to like and their behaviour is way out of proportion.
I can't say anything about Monk as I don't watch it. Franziska however, I say fits this trope like a glove. Pheonix's internal snipes don't change the fact that she gets away with physically assaulting a judge in a courtroom full of police officers and uncountable number of eye witnesses.
- Laser Shark: That's not the definition of Jerk Sue, though. Franny loses constantly, is manipulated by Edgeworth at least twice, and was reprimanded by a small child. The only two people who even briefly find her admirable (Maya and Adrian) have self-esteem issues. She has a certain Karma Houdini quality (hur hur), but a Jerkass does not a Jerk Sue make.
Sovereign Class Student: You seem to forget that Karma Houdini is also a CommonMarySueTrait. Acting like a jerk may not make her a sue but the fact that she got a law degree at the age of 13 does. What makes a Jerk Sue- A Mary Sue who is a Jerkass. Me? I like the character but she is a MarySue and a JerkAss. If anything she seems to be a parody of this trope. While she does loose to Pheonix twice (and only twice she still has a near-perfect record of guilty verdicts outside of her rivalry with Pheonix.
Laser Shark: Common? Perhaps. Defining? No. I realize that Sueism is largely subjective, but I'd like to direct the court's attention to the definition on the Jerk Sue page: "The basis of this trope is the tendency of many writers to create a bitter, ill-spirited, confrontational, or downright mean character and still play them up as an ideal person. (emphasis mine)" Nobody in-universe considers Franziska 'ideal' (well, except Larry and maybe Adrian), and the writers clearly did not intend for us to be rooting for her; her actions are portrayed as unethical, unseemly and overall reprehensible. And having certain plot-related background events is proof of Sueism? That seems like a rather degraded definition of the term to me, but Your Milage May Vary, I suppose.
Samurai Jerk: Bullshit. you're just clutching at straws now. She's a Jerk Sue. Period. Live with it. I like her but she fits this trope exactly and I'm not going to say otherwise out of fanboy loyalty.
Laser Shark: ...classy. Classy. Obscenity, an ad hominem attack, and Because I Said So. That's certain to win me over to your side of thinking. Let's leave the personal attacks out of this, shall we? The point is that I've yet to see or be given any good reason why some people label Franziska as a Mary Sue of any flavor. To me, presentation is everything. For instance, her much-reviled whip comes across as more of a symption of the background weirdness of the Attorneyverse than anything else; coffee mugs are thrown, prosecutors taze their opponents without repercussions, they cross-examine parrots and ventriloquist dummies... the whipping just falls in with the rest of it, and not as something like 'this would be utterly unacceptable and illegal for anyone else, but since it's her we'll let it slide'. Franny's a lot of things, but a Sue isn't one of them, in my opinion. If the straw that I'm clutching at is pretty much the baseline defining trait for the trope, then... I like this straw. Think I'll keep it.
Actually the defining trait for this trope is getting away with being a jerk. Franziska does. The entry on the actual page makes a very good argument towards Franziska's status as a Jerk Sue.
Laser Shark: By that logic, every single character that ever gets away with being a jerk is a Jerk Sue.
The fact of the matter is, the entry itself forms a solid argument.
Larfleeze: Removed the Monk entry because he is always called on his bad behavior and it is never treated as acceptable.
Cambdoranononononono: Taking out Courtney from Total Drama Island. The core of this trope seems to be presenting the character as an ideal, which pretty clearly isn't the case with her. I'd argue that Duncan is an example, but I'll leave that for someone else to decide.
Orihime: Can we PLEASE stop derailing the Akane Tendo part into an Akane bash fest? Someone's personal grudge against Akane is yet again showing and it does not belong here.
- It's called "slapstick comedy" for a reason (though that's only one part out of many of what the franchise is); there's also the Adaptation Decay factor in the manga-to-anime transition, and the sad fact that most Ranma 1/2 fans are more likely to have seen and completely base their preconceptions on the anime than the manga.
- Anime-based nothing; she's exactly the same in the original manga, the only difference is that the manga has more stories where she's seen interacting with someone besides Ranma (he's the only person she ever really acts like a Jerkass towards, though she does sometimes treat Ryoga rather shoddily), and her going over the top is usually a one panel thing. If anything, she can be worse in the manga — using something she knows is Ranma's deepest fear to terrify him into going along with her plan to have him throw a fight, for example? Or the infamous Wall Banger that is her reaction Ranma telling her why it's Not What It Looks Like regarding his attacks on Hinako in the original manga story.
- To be fair it was Kasumi who said that Akane was a sweet girl, the same Kasumi who is described as being just like the Buddha. Ranma also was the one who took a lot of collateral damage period (getting caught in explosions, having people walk over him literally, getting punched into the horizon, etc). There were also times when Akane tried to be more girlish and demure.
Peteman: Can Asuka of NGE be counted as a Jerk Sue? While she is a complete bitch most of the time, in the end, she fails. Especially after the Mind Rape.
