This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Ununnilium: Both of these seem like Cyclic Tropes, tho; Animation Age Ghetto seems more like this.
Lale: THEY ARE. But some were under the impression cyclic tropes have to have already gone full cycle to be considered cyclical. I think the split is ridiculous, but if it was the only way to include tropes that are clearly changing without changing back yet...
Morgan Wick: Un, how are either of the original examples completely cyclic? Clearly you don't think this whole trope is included in Cyclic Trope, because you cite Animation Age Ghetto as part of this trope. Lale, can you find even one other person who would agree that this is included in Cyclic Trope? Because that page was created with a completely Cyclic Trope, the description seems to indicate a complete cycle ("circular")... are you sure you aren't just being a compulsive lumper, while you accuse a bunch of other people compulsive splitters?
Gorgon: Okay, zap the personal stuff. The point of the article is that some tropes have moved to a position distinctly away from the original position and have not yet moved back. This leaves open the possibility that the trope may move into a completely new shape. Hence, evolution. No one seems to making a case that tropes must devolve.
Pro-Mole: IMHO, this covers a case where the trope has gone so much far its origins that it just doesn't seem it will ever come back because it would be too cliché for standing... Blatant case is super strenght;
I know there's no more motive to answer this point of discussion, but as launcher of this article, I thought I should put some words...
Lale: Hey, Ununnilium said they sound like Cyclic tropes first.
Ununnilium: Okay. This trope is not Cyclic Trope; this is one where something has changed and doesn't look like it's going to change back; there's no reason for it to, and society is not moving in a direction which would encourage it to go back. However, the first two examples have both demonstrably gone back and forth. Superheroes actually started rougher and more human, became perfect paragons, moved back towards human, became entirely Anti Heroes, and are moving back towards paragons again. Genius Bruiser and Cute Bruiser are both subversions of "big, dumb, strong guy", which then become so common that the original is a subversion. I'm pulling them out:
- In Golden Age times, The Hero was always The Ace and Anti Heroes were the exception. Nowadays, the Anti-Hero is the way to go.
- The biggest evolved known by now, the Super-Strength powered characters:
- Started with buff, muscular, athletic guys ranging from above-average human to Incredible Hulk-esque mutant.
- Subversion with the Genius Bruiser became common.
- Further, more pronounced subversion with giving a short, young, tiny, usually female character super strength...
Lale: Still, they've clearly changed. Do they go on Cyclic Tropes then? Or do we need a third for in-between?
Ununnilium: Cyclic Trope, yeah. Both of those have gone back and forth in continuous, well, cycle.
Morgan Wick: Okay, if what you say is correct, then the way they're described is plain inaccurate. I actually don't see the trend back to paragons BTW...
Pro-Mole: Me neither. But, anyway, at least we've got settlement... by my part, anyway, it seems good. Got no time for it, I have a life to take care of!
Gorgon: Sure. Go have a life. The rest of us will just muddle through.
Wait. What was this argument about? Oh, yeah. Tropes mutate. Somebody was bitching about that. Pesky tropes.
Lale: Not mutate, go through changes, and "going through cycles" and "evolving" are both synonymous with "change." Still a pointless redundancy.
Pro-Mole: AAMOF, "go through cycle" involves a cycle, i.e., go back to where it came from, that's the basic difference.
Earnest: So why were the German and Scientist examples pulled? They havent looped around yet, or does the previous stage of an evolving trope have to disappear completely for it to qualify?
Pro-Mole: There comes a great question... the German example specially fit into the "moral standards" thing, as after WWII and the whole PC movement, portraying Germans as soulless Nazis was bad thing.
Ununnilium: Neither of them seemed especially accurate. "Germans were first evil, then they were Nazis." ...which seems to be the same thing twice. It's confusing. If someone wants to rewrite them to illustrate an actual trend, go ahead.
Lale: Moved Action Girl example to Cyclic Trope because, judging by Greek mythology and other classics like The Faerie Queene, the Hot Amazon has been around for awhile.
Ununnilium: It's not really a Cyclic Trope, though. It's always there at a low level, but as feminine strength becomes more appreciated in a society, it increases.
Lale: I don't think so, since The Smurfette Principle still rules.
- Oddly specific Anime example. In Bleach (2001) the rest of the cast suspected the main lead was a Delinquent because of his blond hair, but he was only a little grouchy. In Karin (2003), the male lead had exactly the same hair problem and a Death Glare, but was basically a normal guy. In Toradora (2006) the male lead had a Death Glare and a Slasher Smile, but was really a gentle and domestic guy. Of course, Mistaken for Badass isn't quite a trope yet, but give it time.
- This trope is evolving with the growing prevalence of dyed hair in general in Japan. At first—let's say, back in the '80s and early '90s—this was a sure sign of delinquency, because nobody did it except those rebellious enough to be trouble. As time went on, this became more and more common, to the point that, unless the person has some other telltale sign, they're probably relatively normal. School tends to be an exception, though: dyed hair is often still against the rules, and thus "colorful hair = punk" is still fair play. Subversions of the original dynamic in anime probably have to do with You Gotta Have Blue Hair, though some series (Genshiken comes to mind) depict normal individuals with dyed (naturally black) hair, without comment.
This is both a trope now, called Face of a Thug, and so is Mistaken for Badass too funnily enough, but a completely different one.
