Archived Discussion Main / BolivianArmyEnding

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Seth: I haven't seen it but didn't xena end this way?

Francis: Though amusing, I'm not sure if Code Geass's accidental season finale quite belongs here. Is the key factor of a Bolivian Army Ending the impending, unseen battle, or the certain death of our heroes?

stabbyfairy: If it's just the 'certain death' part, then Thelma And Louise would fit quite nicely.

Paul A: I think that the key factor is in fact that it's uncertain death: while death is the most likely outcome, the story ends without showing for certain-sure that the protagonist(s) died.

Richard: How about Battle Royale 2, for the honourable mention? Two guys are trapped, surrounded by the entire Japanese army, with only a revolver and an AK-47 between them. They charge out to battle, and screen fades (?) to white... then we see the two characters in Afghanistan, right as rain.

I think one happened in Witch Hunter Robin, but I only saw a few minutes of the episode. Something about two characters walking out of an elevator into a rain of bullets, and the shot fades to white? —Document N

Nene: Hey, everybody, I think there's a big mistake in the main part of this article. "Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid" is not a good example of what the trope is referring to — which makes the name Bolivian Army Ending misleading and wrong! In the movie, the title characters end up trapped in a small shack, surrounded by seemingly the entire Bolivian army — thousands of soldiers waiting for the two main characters to come out, all of them rifles in hand, ready to shoot at the first sign of movement. It is *absolutely certain* that the two guys will die — and, in fact, it's a historical fact that they died in that battle! The last scene shows the two characters running out of the shack, trying to get to their horses. The film freezes on an image of the two of them in mid-run... and then we hear the sound of ten thousand rifles shooting at the same time. It's clear and evident that they died then and there... the reason we are not shown the death scene is because a body being torn to shreds by thousands of bullets ain't a pretty sight. I think we should change the name of this trope to something from a real example of the situation the trope refers to.

Fire Walk: Except it's an iconic and recognisable example, even if it's not a perfect match, and most people who think this type of ending are happy to agree with it. And as absolutely certain as it is, it isn't shown, so, in fact, those who wish to come up with crazy theories on how they actually survive can do (and probably have).
No issue clearing it up, but it's not worth renaming.

Nene: Err, maybe I didn't insist enough on the fact that these are historical characters? Everything we are told about them (except maybe some private life details) comes from history books. The movie follows the story of their life very accurately, all the way till the point they die. No suspense about that. Nobody will come with crazy theories on how they actually survive, because they didn't. They died there, period. Historical fact.

The death scene is beautifully done. We know that they will die there, we know it's game over for them, we are just waiting to see how it's going to happen. The feeling of impending doom all along the scene is terrible. Then, it happens: the attempt to run, the image freeze, and a thousand guns thundering like a funeral drumroll. It's perfect, ten times more powerful than a scene of exploding bodies and flying blood would have been, a great wrap-up for a wonderful movie. It really bothers me that some people who don't seem to understand the film, who seem to believe that Cassidy and the Kid are fictional characters, try here to present their death scene as an iconic example of a cheap, open-ended way to botch the conclusion of a movie. It's just plain wrong. And it's the sort of glaring mistake that lowers the value of the tropes collection as a whole...

Instead of "Bolivian Army ending" I would suggest "Blake's 7 ending" for the name of the trope. A good tv series (more popular that the Butch Cassidy movie), a similar situation at the end, but the characters are purely fictional — so you can come with whatever implausible theory you want to deny their deaths. ("Avon Dodged ending" would perhaps be even better: "Avon Dodged" is a label commonly used among fans to describe any piece of fanfiction where Blake and the others somehow survive.)

Mister Six: Dude, there is no way that Blake's 7 is more popular than Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

Charred Knight: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was MUCH more popular than Blake 7. Also their ARE implausible theories that the actual outlaws survived. In fact Butch Cassidy's sister claims he survived.

Nene: To Mister Six, check how many websites and fanpages in the net are dedicated to Blake's 7. Check the thousands of fanfics. Now tell me how many fics you can find for the Cassidy & Kid movie.

You'll realize that, among Internet users, Blake's 7 is a hundred times more popular than this film.

To Charred Knight, please, don't go there. The same thing has been said about Tupac Amaru, Emiliano Zapata and Elvis Presley. I didn't come here to discuss conspiracy theories. Who cares about the unevidenced assertions of wackos and people who want to make money selling books?

If this is how you want to handle the issue, I'll be happy to leave the field to you guys to do whatever you want.

Fast Eddie: The word "popularity" worries me. Clearly, a lot of people are familiar with the ending of Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid. It came earlier than the ending of Blakes, which was earlier than ending of Angel. Seems like Cassidy/Kid is the tropemaker here.

Nene: That's right, your timetable is accurate, Eddie. The movie Cassidy/Kid has chronological precedence. But, my point was, Cassidy/Kid is not an example of this trope! The last scene — the two characters come out running, yelling and shooting, a voice is heard ordering: "Fuego!" (Fire), and the image freezes and slowly turns to a sepia tone while thousands of rifles fire again and again and again followed by a ghastly silence — is a death scene. There's nothing to interprete, that's the historical truth, and that's what William Goldman and George Roy Hill intended to show.

The name for the trope should come from a show or film with fictional characters and where a sliver of ambiguity actually exists in the conclusion — thus allowing fans to hope against hope that the heroes survived. Doesn't have to be Blake's 7, that's just one good example; any other well-known movie or tv series will work as well.

Okay folks. I have actually heard that there are people who believe that the historical Butch and Sundance, or at least one of the two, were not killed in Bolivia. I think the belief is that the desperadoes that were cornered by the Bolivian army were two different desperadoes that were mistaken for Butch and Sundance. But maybe there are folks who believe that Butch and Sundance survived the gunfight. Anyway, the two were not very well-known when the movie was made, so the audience wasn't ABSOLUTELY sure whether or not they were killed, a typical film viewer doesn't study history obsessively like us tropers do. It was a stylistic CHOICE not to show the final shots. The complete opposite would be the end of the film "Bonnie and Clyde", where the opposite choice was made, to show us every bullet wound in gruesome detail (and slow motion). "Bonnie and Clyde" CHOSE NOT to go with the "Bolivian Army Ending", which would have made it a very different movie. All this is saying that our definition for "Bolivian Army Ending" should simply be an ending where the death of the characters is almost completely certain, but the film ends before we can see it, making it instead some sort of apotheosis. In my mind, "Thelma and Louise" would definitely qualify, because no it is not possible to jump the Grand Canyon in a car like that. Again, the filmmaker ended it at the moment of apotheosis. Same with my "Comic Strip Presents" example, there is a brilliant beat where the audience wonders, are these two guys, kindof schmucky guys, going to be able to reach apotheosis? —KEVP

• This troper thoroughly despised that ending; it was more Anvilicious than touching, and in his opinion the least welcome last-second Genre Shift ever produced. Blegh.
  • This troper would question the description 'last-second Genre Shift', given that the entire season had been darker and more 'Ha ha sob' than previously. That the viewer fully expects a get-out up until the last minute is hugely effective. But maybe you need to have watched it on Remembrance Day with no spoilers.
  • This troper would argue that when you're dealing with a conflict that cost more British lives than any other in recorded history, has left a scar of graves and unexploded mines across France which remain to this day, contributed to the rise of Communism in Russia, and which arguably devastated Germany to such an extent that the country never truly recovered, Anviliciousness may be an appropriate response.

Conversation In The Main Page and Complaining About Shows You Dont Like.

• The Great Escape features this when most of the escapees are taken to a field, are told to relieve themselves, and mowed down with machine guns.
  • Mike Rosoft: I haven't seen the movie, but if they were unambiguously execued, I don't think it counts as an example.

• Ironically this probably did more for Che then if they had captured him and sent him to Fort Leavenworth or something. As it was photographs were taken that have been compared to images of Christ Crucified, Castro turned him into a martyr, and now millions of bourgeoisie he wouldn't have had a second thought about killing or torturing wear t-shirts with his image on them.
  • Though he would have been right to do it, obviously.
  • YMMV, but this Troper always believed that the Che Guevara shirts were a form of Stealth Insult