This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Ganondorfdude11: There seems to be a problem with the coding on the page. Every minor edit I make ends up showing a whole page of changes in the page history, replacing all quotation marks with #8220 or some coding like that. Any ideas how to fix it?
Medinoc: I suggest you try and replace them all with standard quotation marks. The problem is that somebody's browser thinks of itself as Microsoft Word and tries to replace them with "pretty" quotation marks...
Eric DVH: That's as should be, since #XXXX are Unicode points for various spiffy characters, which the wiki interpreter correctly translates to the proper characters in rendered XHTML. Seeing garbage like " (not actually a “standard” quotation mark, or a quotation mark at all, but in fact a non-glyph most accurately called a “double prime”) or ... when pretty things like “ or … can be done instead offends my eyes, and I purposely replace all the punctuation characters whenever I edit an article. I do notice that when I submit that sort of thing in some browsers (Opera 9 on OS 10.4) the resulting wiki markup contains raw Unicode points, but submitting the same thing in other browsers results in the wiki markup itself containing actual Unicode characters instead. Very confusing. Ununnilium: IMHO, it looks much better with the spaces.
Harpie Siren: I fixed the spelling of "Ganon" with the expection of the opening quote, cause that was a typo that actually made it into the game.
Tanto: Trying to make sense of the Zelda continuity is a fools' errand. I love the Zelda games as much as the next guy, but the overall plot is absolutely slathered in "Make it up as we go along" sauce.
Medinoc: Thanks for your clean-up, Eric DVH.
Eric DVH: 'Welcome. I just got done playing TP and WW (I'd put both off until I could get a 480p VGA cable, it looks SOOOO much better, even considering the $70 and hours of soldering required) and was so confounded by the plots in relation to OoT that I went all over the place reading about the various chronologies. It still doesn't make much sense in my head, but at least I can sleep nights again. :-)
Medinoc: Well, I am still confused a bit. Here's how I see it for now:
- Start of OOT
- Reality A:
- Link hibernates 7 years, Ganon conquers the world (OOT).
- Link defeats Ganon post-conquest (OOT)
- Ganon is sealed.
- Twillight Princess happens.
- ALTTP happens? I doubt it, since there is no mention of a second war in ALTTP, and Ganon is more-or-less killed...
- Reality B:
- Ganon is retroactively sealed right now.
- Majora's Mask happens (not in Hyrule anyway).
- ALTTP happens here (it mentions a war to prevent Ganon from conquering the world).
- OOA+OOS and LA happen, etc.
- Reality C:
- Ganon is retroactively sealed right now.
- Majora's Mask happens (not in Hyrule anyway).
- ALTTP does not happen.
- TWW's backstory happens instead: Ganon is unleashed, starts conquering the world and Hyrule is flooded.
- TWW happens, ets.
Eric DVH: Kind of, except I think there's no way any game could have occurred between OoT and TWW, since TWW's intro explicitly states that there were no “Links” in its timeline between the Hero of Time vanishing at the end of OoT and the Hero of Winds arising in TWW. This is what I feel is closest to what Nintendo is probably thinking right now:
- Start of OoT
- Reality A:
- Door of Time breached, Link hibernates 7 years after drawing Master Sword, Ganon conquers the world (OoT).
- Adult Link defeats Ganon post-conquest (OoT)
- Ganon turns into Ganondorf, is sealed in Dark World/Golden Land by Seven Sages. Exactly like ALttP says.
- Zelda sends Link back in time, creating Reality B, no more Link.
- TWW's backstory happens instead: Ganon is unleashed, starts conquering the world and Hyrule is flooded.
- TWW happens, etc…
- Reality B:
- Door of Time not breached, Master Sword untouched.
- Link arrives fresh from pyrrhic victory in Reality A, convinces authorities that Ganon is guilty.
- Ganon arrested, execution bungled, Ganon exiled among Twili instead.
- MM happens, Link maybe even stays in Termina forever.
- Twillight Princess happens.
- ALttP happens? Yeah, In spite of Ganondorf's defeat at adult Link and the Seven Sages' hands in OoT matching up perfectly with ALttP's backstory, and Ganon's defeat by just Link & Zelda at the end of TP um… not, I think this is probably because Nintendo screwed up. This is not a contradiction (yet), as explained below.
Since Ganon's fate is basically up in the air after TP's not-an-ending, he could still end up sealed in the Golden Land by the Sages, just like in ALttP. Maybe this will even be the plot of another game positioned between the two (or it's already assumed to happen offscreen, which would be silly).
Medinoc: It's a plausible theory, because it's possible nobody knew what happened in TP. All that transpired was that the castle was inexplicably sealed for, say, a few days. The monster raids and all other events weren't significant enough to appear in any legend...
Darth Yoshi: I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the whole "no more Link in future Oo T timeline" thing. Where does that come from? There's no indication anywhere that time travel works like that. Further, the Sacred Realm still needs to be breached in the past-timeline, because otherwise how did Link get Courage? Anyway, TP can't take place before Ltt P, since the whole point of Ltt P was that Ganon was stuck thanks to the Imprisoning War seal, and needed the Sages' bloodlines to break free. Which makes sense, since Oo T Zelda's job as the Seventh Sage was making sure that the seal was "perfect," whatever that means (I figure that's how Ganondorf was retroactively sealed in the past). Ergo, Ganondorf shouldn't have been able to escape from the Dark World to cause trouble in TP.
Ganondorfdude11:The "no more Link in the Oo T future" thing was confirmed by the developers. As for how Link got Courage, recall that Link still has the mark on his hand in the ending of Oo T. It's a time paradox. This same paradox likely explains how Ganon got Power at his execution. The Sacred Realm was never broken into in the TP timeline, at least not yet. And TP can very well take place before ALTTP if the Ganon of the Imprisoning War story is a different one from the Ganon in TP. FSA gives this theory credence, since it gives Ganon an alternate backstory.
Darth Yoshi: Do you have a source for that? Perhaps my googlefu is simply weak, but I haven't found any quotes saying "future Link disappears." All I've found is stuff about timeline splitting and the WW backstory. Of course, Word of God doesn't jive with the WW legend anyway. WW can't possibly be a century after OoT, because there's no way the name "Hyrule" would be forgotten that quickly. By the same token, the time that it would take for "Hyrule" to fade from the legend means that the rest of it is suspect. And Link's possession of Courage at the end of OoT is why I'm saying that the Sacred Realm was still opened. He opens the door, pulls out the Master Sword, gets Courage, then puts the sword back, triggering the blue light we see, and closes the door again. No need for paradoxes or fancy logic hoops. Anyway, FSA isn't really an alternate origin. Yes, there's a new Ganondorf in that game, but frankly he's irrelevant because Ganon already existed prior to FSA, sealed in the trident (hence the inscription "[e]vil... spirit of the trident"). Regardless, OoT is already an approximate fit for the Imprisoning War — factoring divergence due to the nature of legends — and suggesting an entirely new conflict for it just muddles things. And to be facetious, TP Ganondorf isn't OoT Ganondorf anyway, because TP Ganondorf has pointy ears. They're not Hylian-pointy, but they definitely aren't round like OoT Ganondorf's ears were.
Ganondorfdude11: Here's how the whole thing happened. Link defeats Ganon in the future, gets sent back and warns Zelda that Ganondorf is a traitor. Ganon is arrested and executed like in TP. In the other timeline, Ganon breaks out of the Sacred Realm and Link isn't around to stop him, since he got shoved into the other timeline. The original Japanese refers to how the Hero left through the flows of time and never returned. Note that TWW takes place well more than 100 years after Oo T, since the original interview that said "100 years" was a mistranslation. Aonuma said "hundreds of years." Note that your interpretation of FSA is also a bit suspect. Ganon isn't sealed in the Trident. It's just an evil spirit. And in Link to the Past, we are told that Ganon never figured out how to return to the Light World once he was sealed in the Imprisoning War. Smushing TWW in the middle kind of muddies that because Ganon escapes and then dies. And then the kingdom gets destroyed. On a minor note, Oo T Ganon has pointed ears in the end sequence. Fanon holds that the Triforce gave them to him.
TJ Devil 02: A huge thank you to whoever found the Dave Barry quote. I love me some Dave Barry humor.
Prfnoff: I did.
Eric DVH: Since Link's Awakening (and, given the statement being objected to, both of the Oracle games) already says it happens before The Legend of Zelda, I don't really understand what the following is talking about:
- But since some fans would kill if they heard you suggest this, let's remember that the same conditions have been argued to place the Oracles before TLoZ.
I think that was meant to be "after The Adventure of Link" - just getting it on the wrong side of Ao L.
Kalle: Would Link's grandmother in WW count as a subversion to the Parental Abandonment trope? Granted, she's not a parent-parent, but she is related to him. (And as for the "bad luck" bit, the worst that happens to her is that she gets sick, but she can be cured easily AND gives you awesome soup for doing so!)
whitetigah: The Four Swords section needs a rewrite, since I've written it using information from The Other Wiki (I'm not familiar with the game).
Should Well, Excuse Me, Princess! be here? After all, it's the Trope Namer.
Mantalord: Erm... This character page is a different, inferior version of this one. Is it possible that we can delete the contents of the former and make it redirect into the latter?
Arrow: Done. I copied over the listings missing from the first into the latter as well.
Ganondorfdude11: While it's cool that each individual game gets its own page now, can we create a redirect to the pages using the subtitles? When I want to say, "this trope was used in Ocarina of Time, I don't want to have to type out the "The Legend of Zelda" part in front. Also, Zelda II's page has been mistitled. The game is only ever called Zelda II: The Adventure of Link. There's no "Legend of" in the title.
Dragon Quest Z: There is no official timeline, so this isn't actual information to give to the description. And it just adds length to the page needlessly.
There is no precise "official" timeline for the games, though the opinion of the series creator is taken by most fans as canonical. This really makes little difference, as each 'main' game is essentially the same story done in a new way. Things gleaned from the games about the probable timeline(s):
- Ocarina of Time is set before A Link To The Past.
- Majora's Mask is a direct sequel to Ocarina.
- The Wind Waker is set long after Ocarina of Time, as stated by the King name-checking the Hero of Time.
- Phantom Hourglass is a direct sequel to Wind Waker.
- Twilight Princess is set after Ocarina (as stated often in the game, particularly a photo, um, pictograph of a fisherman from Ocarina kept by his descendant,) and hinted to be a connection between Ocarina and Link to the Past, most notably the Temple of Time from Ocarina is becoming the Sacred Grove from Link to the Past.
- This seems to make Twilight and Wind Waker mutually exclusive, meaning that Wind Waker is an Alternate Continuity such as "What happened to the future that Link abandoned to go back to being a child?". This has been confirmed by several Nintendo interviews.
- Then again, the Twilight Forest Temple had some definite visual references to the Wind Waker one... of course, both would have been future versions of the Ocarina Forest Temple.
- This seems to make Twilight and Wind Waker mutually exclusive, meaning that Wind Waker is an Alternate Continuity such as "What happened to the future that Link abandoned to go back to being a child?". This has been confirmed by several Nintendo interviews.
- A Link to the Past occurs sometime before Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link, as stated on the box.
- Four Swords occurs sometime around Link to the Past.
- Four Swords Adventures is a sequel to Four Swords. It happens before Link to the Past because in it (Ganon obtains his trident, which he wields in Link to the Past.)
- The Minish Cap is a very distant prequel to Four Swords (possibly even the first game in the entire chronology, especially considering its obvious conception as the origin of Link's signature headpiece).
- Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons happen after either Link to the Past, or after the original two games. This is because Oracles happens when the Triforce is intact in the real world, and Ganon is already beaten (only to be partly revived and beaten again near the end of the second Oracle game,) which are conditions fulfilled only after those games.
- Link's Awakening is a direct sequel to Link to the Past. Or Oracles, depending on how you look at things. It doesn't help that Oracles also ends with Ganon being beaten (Link's motivation for the
roadsea trip he took) and also ends with Link getting on a boat.
- Four Swords occurs sometime around Link to the Past.
- All of the games except Adventure of Link are advertised as being set prior to The Legend of Zelda.
- The Adventure of Link is a direct sequel to Legend of Zelda.
- Both the Phillips CD-I games exist only in dimensions eaten by Azathoth.
- The cartoon series, made shortly after the first game was released, originally took place between the first two games, hence the absence of the Triforce of Courage (which was discovered in Adventure of Link). Upon the release of Link to the Past, this was no longer true, since Nintendo envisioned the Triforce completely differently.
- Alongside the cartoon series, a short-lived series of comic books was authorized by Nintendo and printed by Valiant. These take place following Adventure of Link, and reference only the two NES games. The comics add an element not seen in any of the games, nor the cartoons, nor any other Zelda-related medium: they claim that Link is not native to Hyrule, but came there from the neighboring kingdom of Calatia. In fact two of the storylines in the comics involve interaction with Calatia's monarch, Queen Seline, and one features Link going home to visit his family. Because this is an isolated detail, however, it's another example of Canon Discontinuity.
Because of all the confusion with the timelines and other Zelda facts, it's easy for noobs to get mixed up. If someone that should know better decides to mess up something anyway, consider that person Gannon-Banned. See also the series's character page.
Darth Yoshi: Regarding MC and Link's hat, I want to dispute that it's the definitive origin. Oo T Link wore his hat because he was raised by the Kokiri. There's no reason to connect him to the Minish.
- Ganondorfdude11: The origin of the hat is of no consequence. The tradition was started there. Every Link since has worn the hat, except the one in the TMC backstory. This points to TMC being the Meta Origin of the hat.
Darth Yoshi: Maybe, if MC was next after OoT/MM. But it's not. We know that Vaati last appeared 50 years before FS, and was defeated by a Hero with the Four Sword. Since there haven't been any other Vaati games, the assumption then is that the FS backstory is in fact MC. FSA is a direct sequel to FS a la LoZ and AoL, so we can say that MC was also ~50 years before FSA. In FSA Ganon is "an ancient demon reborn," which places OoT, or perhaps TP (the other Ganon origin), way before MC. Since we also know that in OoT/TP Ganon was not sealed into a trident, the obvious conclusion is that at some point after that Ganon came back and did get sealed into a trident. Also consider the Dark World. LttP Ganon was said to have corrupted the Golden Land into the Dark World in his bid for the Triforce before he was sealed away. The implication is that between the creation of the Dark World in the Imprisoning War and LttP, the Dark World remained sealed. Since there is also a Dark World and a Ganon in FSA, FSA is either the Imprisoning War (extremely unlikely, since in FSA the Triforce is never even mentioned and Ganon is sealed into the Four Sword, not the Dark World) or post-LttP. Ergo, LttP most likely predates FSA and by association MC. LttP Link also had the hat, so MC does not in fact set the Hero's hat precedent. Ganondorfdude11: Nowhere is any kind of time frame given for the gap between TMC and FS. The FS backstory is told like an ancient legend, so by extension it must have happened long before FS. There is also no Ganon sealed in the Trident, just a nondescript evil spirit. The people also do not know about Ganon, so putting LTTP before FSA is kind of backwards. Here's a quote from Bill Trinen, chief localizer of TMC, about the hat's significance: This game takes you really, really deep into Hylian lore, and you could almost look at it as the story of how Link gets his cap. There really is no reason to not put TMC first, especially since we see another Link in the prologue, and he's not wearing a hat. The idea that Kokiri garb was the definitive origin of the hat is just Fanon. It's essentially a circular argument.
Arrow: That "there is no official timeline" bit... where is this coming from? The Destructoid article? While I admit Destructoid is a great resource (as well as the Escapist, who picked it up behind them), it all originally comes from two Youtube videos by some random dude, and I see no proof that either site actually followed by up by asking Nintendo themselves and proving that the video uploader wasn't just some lying troll.
Ganondorfdude11: There actually is an official timeline. Miyamoto and Aonuma have mentioned a big Microsoft Word document that's supposed to act like a universe bible. It's just that their "gameplay first, storyline second" attitude means it gets changed almost every time a new game comes out. Remember when Ocarina of Time was supposed to be a direct prequel to A Link to the Past? But yes, timeline speculation has no place on the main page. Confirmed timeline facts like the split timeline and the obvious direct sequels do, however.
Loki Fenrisulf IV: I know I shouldn't be doing this myself, but I would like to know if anyone would please like to read my fic
and, if you like it, recomend it in the Fan Fic Recs page.
Ganondorfdude11: Okay, who copied-and-pasted the entire main article onto this page? I changed it back, but it was still a pretty weird thing to do.
Eric DVH: Agh, um, oops. Sorry about that, I mixed up the two forms (had both open.)
Chibiterasu: Does anyone else think there should be a separate article for the Tingle series?
