Archived Discussion Characters / TheLegendOfZelda

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

• Since I saw this topic coming up again (for the, like, 300th time), I figgured it would be good if we finnaly discussed it, before we go on to add and delete edits about it over and over again: The issue whatever and which Links are reincarnated. I think we should get this controversy finally out of the way: To give my opinion first, I think that they indeed are reincarnations, but in a simmilar sense as Aang is the reincarnation of the last Avatar: No blood realation needed, just slap the hero's soul, or essence, or whatever onto some random kid and you are ready to go. And as for the paradoxes involving TWW Link (Oo T Link was pretty much erased out of exitence after all), I figgure that the goddesses, being, well, goddesses found their way to recover the hero's soul/essence/whatever but it took them a while, explaining the huge timespan passing between Oo T and TWW. Ah, anyway, to get to the point, I think we shouldn't treat "TWW Link is a reincarnation" examples as Jossed, but treat every single example about any Link being a reincarnation carefully and as mere speculation, since nothing was ever confirmed. Word of God may have stated that a Link always appears when the Hylians need a hero, but it never stated that those Links were reincarnations, rather than just random people, chosen to be heros for their personality.
  • By the way, regarding Ganondorf's statement about TWW Link in the end of the game, I checked it just now: In the japanese version, he says "Sore de koso...Toki no Yuusha no umarekawari..." which roughly means "He/she/it/you is/are certainly... the reincarnation of the Hero of Time". So this wasn't a mistranslation at all. He also wasn't speaking metaphorically. The dramatic elipse doesn't make it seem like a metapher.
• Ganondorfdude11: The main issue is whether or not to take Ganon's statement as literal or metaphorical. In the same game, we have both the Deku Tree and the King of Red Lions say that he has no relation to the Hero of Time. This doesn't overcome the inherent paradox involved with the timeline split. We have the Hero's Shade show up in the other timeline, which is heavily, heavily implied to be the spirit of the Hero of Time. Ganon's line in TWW is the only shred of evidence to support the reincarnation theory, and it's highly probable he was speaking metaphorically. I don't think we can be too overly-literal in reading this, especially since the evidence points to TWW Link being a new hero and not related to the Hero of Time at all. Note also that he didn't inherit the Triforce as most other Links did. He had to prove that he was a worthy successor to the Hero of Time through his deeds, and in that way became the "Hero of Time reborn." The reincarnation theory doesn't have much to support it beyond Ganon's line, and the timeline split makes it even more unlikely. Saying A Wizard Did It doesn't erase the inherent plot holes involved.
  • Meikyu Butterfly: You are forgetting two crucial points here: One, the fact that we have no clue how the flow of time works in the Zelda universe (indeed, it seems to work on very easily bendable rules, as several games involving Time Travel showed), so the paradox doesn't necessarily exclude every TWW-timeline Link from the reincarnation of the original hero of the goddesses (no matter if The Hero of Time was the first or not). Second, and more importantly, TWW Link was able to draw the Master sword. This was before he obtained the Triforce of Courage. It has been stated several times in the series that only the one destined to become the hero is able to draw and/or wield it. Now, you may argue that the sword was depowered at the time and thus didn't reject him, but in that case, it would have rejected the "unfit wielder" right after being re-enpowered- It didn't. And this, depending on how you played the game, can still have happened before recovering the Triforce of Courage. Also, there is another evidence that Ganondorf wasn't speaking methaphorically. It's a line earlier in the game, that most people seem to miss: When he was about to kill Link for the first time (when Tetra came and played the Big Damn Heroine.), he told Link to "go back to the world beyond and tell those fools that the sword has no power anymore". Since "those fools" are most likely the 6 sages, Saria, Rauru, Naboru, Ruto, Impa and Darunia, I'm sure he wasn't refering to him going down to sunken Hyrule, but to him dying and meeting them in afterlife. And since he said "go back" he obviously thought that Link has been dead before —> Reincarnation. Also, both Valoo and Jabun thought Link to be the Hero. It was the Ko RL who denied this to Jabun, using the unsure formulation "He appears not to", as in "Apparently", the word most frequently used when guessing something. Ko RL wasn't sure about what he was claiming either. And the Deku Tree... was only trown of when Link wasn't able to understand his ancient Hylian speech. OK, I admitt, I have no idea why the Tree thought that a reincarnation would be able to understand that language by default. (just for your information: TP Link isn't able to read ancient Hylian either. There were 2 or more occasions in Twilight Princess where he tried to and failed) Well, as I said, there's still a lot to speculate about, but TWW Link's possible "connection" to the other Links isn't any more jossed than that of any other Link.
• We can argue fan theories all we want, but it's still never been confirmed that TWW Link is a literal reincarnation of the Hero of Time. The Zelda series also seems to work with a healthy dose of Because Destiny Says So, so TWW Link doesn't necessarily have to be a literal reincarnation of the Hero to pull the Master Sword. Another note about the Japanese version of Ganon's line: It's worth noting that the word for reincarnation, "umarekawari", is more used for figurative instead of literal rebirth, as it's most common usage is to refer to the re-emergence of traits and talents in spiritual successors.
  • I never said that he really was it, I just wanted to drive the point home, that the possibility was never outright jossed.
    • If it requires invocation of A Wizard Did It to get around the plot holes involved, it might as well be Jossed.
    • This is Hyrule. And we don't know, how Hyrulean Time Paradoxes work. We also don't know what exactly the goddesses can do and what kind of rules they follow. Also, I've read through the japanese script now and to me it seems like Aonuma/the Scriptwriter wanted it to be ambigious and up to the players imagination! Just like everything else regarding Link! Link was originally supposed to be an AFGNCAAP, whose treats are only determined by the way the player sees him, keep that in mind. You can't just invoce your own theories (And yes, saying that he is not is just as well a theory as saying that he is is.) as Canon and call jossed on everyone else's theories! Also, every Link is in any case an "incarnation" in the sense that he's an incarnation of the player in the game's world. Seen this way, Link being an reincarnation of the hero of time would actually depend on if the player in question has played Oo T or not.

Komodin: Removed this:

• Villain Decay: He's just so hard to take seriously anymore, because he will not stop hijacking other villains evil plots, suffice to say, it's as if he suddenly got writers block, yes, he's still a monster, but he's lost much of his threat value, especially in Boss quality, heck, Malladus, who's final form is an Expy manages to be much harder!

1) He only hijacked the plot three times:

• The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons/Ages: Hijacked it from the Twinrova Sisters, who in turn hijacked it from Onox and Veran.
• The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures: Hijacked it from Vaati.
• The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: Hijacked it from Zant.

2) The "boss quality" bit is less his fault and more the fault of the game developers.

• Meikyu Butterfly: For once, I agree, Ganondorf actually managed to become a better villian over the years, instead of a worse one, especially when compared to Nintendo's other iconic villian, Mr. Big Bad Go-Karting Turtle. His early incarnations were actually silly compared to the Magnificent Bastard he is nowadays.
• Ganondorfdude11: Exactly. Compare Twilight Princess Ganon with the borderline Harmless Villain Ganon from stuff like the cartoons and comics from the 80's.