Markup View

Author: KingZeal

Oct 23rd 2012 at 12:56:25 PM

''so yeah, it does. It's about Western perception in general, as a result of both the circumstances of the women involved and the reaction of some such women (that some became prostitutes, as described earlier in the passage).''

No it doesn't.  Again, it says that this is how the ''invaders saw the women'', not how women saw the men.  It says '''nothing''' about them being "intimidated".

''I don't see anything in your source about the native ideal being responsible for Western perceptions of women. It just says that internal to culture, there was an idea of a proper place for women, which is certainly not a foreign concept to Westerners. It does not in any way suggest that that's what's responsible for Western perceptions of the *difference* between Western women and Eastern ones, or in how they're perceieved. ''

That isn't what I said.  I used that source as an example of why '''this trope has elements exclusive to''' Western domination of Asian culture.  "China Doll" as a trope exists partly because of alien gender roles on the part of Westerns.  Even if Westerners had gender roles, their portrayals seemed different to them than in the East.  It's important for defining the trope to pin down exactly what this trope is both from its Eastern origins and Western perceptions.

''The reason why the description legitimizes the trope is because it implies that China Doll is a perception by Westerners of a concept native to Eastern culture. The details may be slightly off, but it's implied that the Western idea that Eastern women are submissive has a root in the fact that Eastern women strive to be submissive because their own culture says so. It would mean that Westerners are accurately perceiving some aspect of Eastern culture, and how it differs from their own.''

That's not legitimizing it.  That's like claiming that mentioning "Thug Life" is sometimes heralded in parts of black culture automatically legitimizes ScaryBlackMan.  It does no such thing.  However, it ''does'' show how stereotypes can be dangerous because they self-perpetuate.

''And one more thing: you haven't dealt with the fact that Yamato Nadeshiko is specifically Japanese. No one's come up with a parallel native Chinese trope yet. Yes, your source hinted that all heavily Confucian countries should have similar ideals, but again, these are norms for the "ideal woman" common to many cultures, including Western ones, so they don't automatically account for real or perceived differences.''

This was originally ''supposed'' to be that trope, but [[TropesAreFlexible it's evolving into something different]].  I might take a look at a few sources and propose another trope.