This is a title.
- Villain Sue: Caius Ballad. He has some of the most powerful magic in the franchise, he's an immortal who repeatedly resurrects when killed, he can summon Bahamut, he can use a previously unknown summon method to merge with Bahamut, he's intended to be tragic and sympathetic, and is spoken of as a legendary hero who was only ever beaten once. His plan ultimately succeeds and he only dies because he wants it to happen, and in the next game he redeems himself by saving Yeul and going with her incarnations to watch over the Unseen Realm for eternity.
Pulled this before because basically all of it is poppycock.
- "He has some of the most powerful magic in the franchise" Uh, yeah, no he doesn't. When he can take control of all the magic in the world or can summon a planet out of nowhere or seize control of all of time and space instead of hastening the end of a universe that's already falling apart thanks to Etro ex Machina, by hastening the death of a goddess who is already dying thanks to that same Etro ex Machina, then we'll talk about how he's got some of the most powerful magic in the franchise.
- "He can use a previously unknown summon method to merge with Bahamut". Considering Yu Yevon pulled that particular thing off four-ish games prior, with summons far more powerful than Bahamut, I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this being an example. I'm pretty Shuyin did that as well after him.
- "His plan ultimately succeeds", except that no, it really doesn't. Yeul keeps him around, Who Wants to Live Forever? sort of thing and ultimately proves that his actions were tangential to The End of the World as We Know It anyway. Then a new Big Bad steps in and renders his whole plan pointless.
- Since when does being redeemed make someone a Villain Sue exactly? Isn't that like, the exact opposite of a Villain Sue? Besides which, Kuja would like a word with you.
"He has some of the most powerful magic in the franchise" - Ultima, Giga Graviton, Megiddo Flame, Mega Flare, apparently Comet in a cutscene, and in Lightning Returns a host of conventional elemental magic.
"He can use a previously unknown summon method to merge with Bahamut". - Yu Yevon and Shuyin are not the same, they took control of Eidolons or brainwashed them. Caius physically transforms into Bahamut using a super secret summon method only he can do without dying.
"His plan ultimately succeeds" - He has Noel kill him, destroying the Heart of Chaos and killing Etro, causing time to stop and Chaos to flood Pulse. That Bhunivelze's plan would negate the benefit of Caius' has no impact on Caius' plan succeeding.
Redemption is not the sole aspect of a Villain Sue, it's a combination of things. To quote from that page:
"It might be a consequence of Evil Is Cool, taken to the logical extreme."... "It may also come about as an attempt to create a Magnificent Bastard or similar style of villain, only to go too far and become one of these."
The former especially, is Caius. The developers state he's the most powerful antagonist of the series, he has access to super-powerful magic and an iconic Summon, and he ultimately succeeds in his plan. But he's supposed to be tragic and sympathetic and is Lightning's counterpart that isn't really evil, and he gets to save Noel and Yeul and lets them be together in the end.
Edited by DrakeClawfang
Great, so he's got alot of spells. His powers still pale in comparison to his predecessors.
The precise method by which he merges with Bahamut is immaterial. It's been done. Not a unique ability and not an example.
His goal was to destroy the world and end his own life. After Noel pokes him in the chest, guess what? World's not destroyed, and he's still not dead. Cauis' actions had lots of consequences, but none of them were actually caused by him. They would have happened anyway. Caius just helped along a process that was already happening. And again, nothing that his predecessors haven't done before.
He plainly isn't the most powerful, his super-powerful magic is inferior to that of past big bads, having an iconic summon doesn't mean anything and his plan doesn't succeed.
Again, being tragic and sympathetic isn't an original concept in Final Fantasy. Shuyin was tragic and sympathetic and the counterpart of a hero who wasn't really evil. Kuja was tragic and sympathetic and the counterpart of a hero who wasn't really evil.
Still not seeing the Villain Sue.
Edited by Eagal You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
You are taking the bits of information one at a time, and of course you don't see a Villain Sue that way, because it's the sum of everything.
"Great, so he's got alot of spells. His powers still pale in comparison to his predecessors." - I repeat, Word of God is that he is the most powerful antagonist. You can say he isn't, and I agree, but the official word is that he is. This shows author favortism and bias, which is part of being a Villain Sue.
"The precise method by which he merges with Bahamut is immaterial. It's been done. Not a unique ability and not an example." - Except it hasn't been done. The only other person to do so is in Type-0, which I'm not even sure if it's the same thing. And yes, it is a unique ability, both in FF 13's narrative and in the overall series. Other than the vague Type-0, point to another character that has the power to merge with their Eidolon. Not possess or brainwash, to physically become it.
"His goal was to destroy the world and end his own life. After Noel pokes him in the chest, guess what? World's not destroyed, and he's still not dead." - He's not dead because the afterlife merges with the real world, and yes, it destroyed the world as it was known. You're arguing semantics.
"Again, being tragic and sympathetic isn't an original concept in Final Fantasy. Shuyin was tragic and sympathetic and the counterpart of a hero who wasn't really evil. Kuja was tragic and sympathetic and the counterpart of a hero who wasn't really evil." - I repeat, being sympathetic alone is not enough, no, it's when taken into account everything else.
I am posting on Ask the Tropers for more input on this discussion.
Based off the points you brought up I'd call Caius a Villain Sue.
Edited by VeryMelon
Speaking of arguing semantics, while physically merging with a summon is technically different from taking possession of it, the end result is still the same. Bad guy has control of a summon and its actions. It does not and should not matter the method by which he does it.
He's not dead because Yeul keeps him from dying. Or so I recall. I confess my memory is a bit fuzzy on the details of their convo in Returns but I do remember the whole thing being the fault of the Yeuls. They wouldn't let him die.
Everything else being "He's stronger than the protagonists, as many villains are" and "The author likes the character he created, as many authors do"
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
Is Vanilla Protagonist YMMV? I felt like Serah was one, very very much. Somehow she felt blander than she was in XIII (when she had significantly less screen-time!) and her characterisation felt by the numbers for me or else attempts to give her more personality (occasional explosions of temper) fell flat for me. This may be a personal gripe, but for me it was telling that my reaction when she died was nowhere near the impact of Aerith's death in 7, or being told Yuna would sacrifice herself in 10.