Discussion Recap / GameOfThronesS8E4TheLastOfTheStarks

I also think this is a valid entry and would agree with a re-add — or re-write if some feel it's necessary. In-Universe, this was what was expressed by Jon toward Sansa in the episode as it doesn't seem Sansa is acknowledging the full extent of Dany's help when Sansa responds that Arya is the one who killed the Night King.

Or alternatively, perhaps another trope is fitting. Sansa acknowledges she won't forget Dany's men who gave their lives defending Winterfell but she still doesn't want Dany as her queen. Still, I don't think Sansa is really acknowledging Dany's contribution, only that she won't forget Dany's fallen men.

From 804:

Jon: You understand we'd all be dead if not for her. We'd be corpses marching down to King's Landing.

Sansa: Arya's the one that killed the Night King.

Jon: Her men gave their lives defending Winterfell—

Sansa: And we will never forget them.

Sansa: That doesn't mean that I want to kneel to someone who—

Jon: I swore myself and the North to her cause.

It's true, the battle against the dead was a joint effort because neither Dany or the combined efforts of the North, wildlings, and the Vale could hold them off on their own since the battle was just about lost by the time Arya killed the Night King. However, that's not a point Sansa makes and Dany is a big reason why they were able to hold off the undead for as long as they did.

I'd be good with a re-add, re-write, or if somebody found another trope that would be agreeable to all. I think the entry is valid as written.

It has been a week, so I am going to re-add these or re-write them; I haven't come up with a rewrite yet and re-adding would be easiest.

In fairness, the show itself seems to have forgotten that fighting the Night King was in her best interest; literally every reference to it this season was talking about how she's doing it because she cares and is in love with Jon, even though she was convinced through pragmatism.

Though entries like No Good Deed Goes Unpunished are a stretch.

I don't expect the North to suddenly bow in submission to the 'Queen of Dragons', but at the very least, show a bit of recognition. It would seem that only Jon had openly recognized Daeny's efforts in saving the North from certain destruction, whereas others were apathetic at best, apprehensive at worst.

On the other hand, if Daeny had trusted her own instincts or listened to Olenna early in Season 7 and become a 'Dragon', she would have stormed King's Landing, come out with minimal casualties, and been able to march North not only with her mostly intact army, but also the armies of Dorne and Tyrell. Also would have been a show of political unity. But, too late for that.

The moral authority of the show is definitely not Daenerys however, if anyone should claim to have moral authority, it's probably Jon. Unfortunately, Jon is too Lawful Good for his own good, and by the end of this episode, I'd say he is now in the Lawful Stupid territory.

Well, there is a valid point in the counter-arguments; 'not wanting the crown' and 'being disinterested in ruling' are two different things.

Jon doesn't want the crown (and didn't want to be made Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, for that matter), but whenever he's put in a position of power he doesn't shirk his responsibilities. Robert, however, wanted neither the crown nor the responsibilities of ruling. At least, that's how I interpreted Varys' line about Robert not being interested in being king.

I agree with RoundRobin. In addition to RoundRobin's points, I think pointing out the differences between Jon and Robert is relevant because they are two different kinds of Reluctant Rulers. If we're just going by words alone, Varys's two statements are contradictory. However, these statements are contextualized by Varys knowing Robert and this falling into contrast of what Varys knows of Jon (based on what he's witnessed of Jon, ie. efforts to unify the realm against one common threat vs. Robert resorting to alcohol, hunting, and recreational activities).

However, removing 'may' and other weasel words might be best on the main page.

robert wasn't a Reclutant Ruler rather a lazy one. he explicitly claimed the crown for himself after the rebellion. also the Reclutant Ruler trope page specifically aludes to Jon's kind of thinking and even calls it the ideal one (basically making the same point as Varys)

Well, there is a valid point in the counter-arguments; 'not wanting the crown' and 'being disinterested in ruling' are two different things.

That's not actually said in the show itself. Varys makes no acknowledgement, Lampshade Hanging or differentiate why Jon's the right kind of Reluctant Ruler. That's the fans putting the voice to the character. The example that now stands has the advantage of being grounded in previous examples and actual scenes.

If it's fans interpreting and so on then it has no place in the main page and any appearance of the word "may" goes against Examples Are Not Arguable.

ok then, if examples are not arguable then this one is not. varys never compares the jon and robert, you are doing it. he never said robert was bad ruler because he didn't wanted the crown, he said he was uninterested in ruling, yet when speaking about jon snow varys talks about not wanting the throne. again, two different things that you're turning into a Single-Issue Wonk

Broken Aesop doesn't require the characters inuniverse to make that connection, if it did it would be Lampshade Hanging. The stated moral of the show in the first season with Robert is that he wasn't a good king because he was a Reluctant Ruler. The Reluctant Ruler page is very clear that "someone who doesn't want to rule" qualifies. The splitting hairs you do is not recognized there. Heck the trope page lists Robert Baratheon among its examples.

For a character to go from criticizing someone as Reluctant Ruler and then invoke that same trope for another character without qualification would qualify as Broken Aesop. That is simple and clear-cut.

While Varys doesn't lampshade that Jon is the right kind of Reluctant Ruler, it's mentioned plenty of times in this episode alone. "What if there were a better [ruler of the seven kingdoms]? "People are drawn to [Jon]", etc. Viewers are given the information indirectly instead of being hit on the head with it.

Again, specific to Varys, earlier scenes, actual episodes and so on. The stuff about others talking about Jon being a Magnetic Hero can be put in separate trope examples on the same page, as is the fact that Varys believes that Jon being a male makes him a better fit falling under Heir Club for Men (which is listed too). The Broken Aesop is specifically about Varys and the earlier scenes makes the case and argument.

Reclutant Ruler only lists Stannis, and for the exact same reasons as Varys gives for Jon, the literature section does cite Robert but that omits the fact that despite not wanting to rule, he claimed the crown for himself (not so reclutant, then).

Revolutionary_Jack: I see what you're getting at by going with the words at face value but Varys has witnessed very different things from Robert and Jon. However, you're right in that it's not outwardly stated beyond what RoundRobin cited, which is more indirect. Maybe more voices are needed on this? I'm fine with the example either way but I think the differences in Robert and Jon being different kinds of Reluctant Rulers are relevant.

As for Heir Club for Men, I'm not sure how much of that is playing into Varys's support. But I could be totally missing something (EDIT: I did, sorry about that! See below!). Jon does have a better claim but not because he's male — because he's the child of Dany's older brother, who'd come before her in succession even if Rhaegar was female because Rheagar is older. Likewise, any children of Rhaegar's would come before Dany, male or female. But I think the show kind of messed this up in the 802 Jon/Dany scene when Dany pointed out Jon was the last male heir. Still, I see no statements from Varys on Jon's gender.

The transcript from the relevant dialogue in that scene:

Varys: No, it's worse than that. He has the better claim to the throne. Tyrion: He doesn't want the throne. Varys: I'm not sure it matters what he wants. The fact is, people are drawn to him. Wildlings, Northmen. He's a war hero.

EDIT: Now I see, Varys does mention Jon's gender and acknowledges the sexism of Westerosi society. I elaborated my thoughts in my reply below. Sorry about that! :)

May I suggest a minor alteration to the example?

• Broken Aesop: While Varys' sudden support of Jon as King of the Seven Kingdoms is grounded in his previous assertions that he only wants what's best for the Realm, him saying that a Reluctant Ruler would be the right King is a sharp departure from the man who castigated Robert for [...etc etc...].

I believe that this addresses both Varys' reasons for doing a 180 degree turn, and the inconsistency in his (stated) reasoning.

Edit: The Heir Club for Men entry might need a tweaking. Cherrychels is right in that Jon takes precedence over Dany due to being Rhaegar's child, not just because he's male. The "cocks do matter, I'm afraid" was about who the (notoriously sexist) westerosi lords would be willing to support as their ruler.

I agree with Round Robin's amendation and will insert that right away.

As for Heir Club for Men, I already said "legal, political, cultural" which covers the whole westerosi sexism angle.

Westeros is sexist but I don't see any evidence that Varys, as an individual, "unashamedly believes [Heir Club for Men]."

Varys didn't say anything about Jon's gender, only that he had the better claim — even if Jon were female, he'd still have a better claim than Dany just by virtue of being the kid of Aerys's oldest kid.

EDIT: Nevermind — Varys does mention Jon's gender. Can't believe I blanked out on that, you're right — but I do agree with what RoundRobin has said, he's acknowledging the sexism of the Westerosi lords, not necessarily partaking in the sexism himself. I think the example needs some tweaking because I don't think Varys is wholeheartedly supporting sexism, just analysing how that would make Jon more appealing to the Westerosi lords. But you're right, there is sexism in the Westerosi lords preferring a male over a female.

I also agree with RoundRobin's amendment :)