Discussion Recap / GameOfThronesS8E1Winterfell

I think both entries are valid. I don't think either is unnecessarily rude (Jon being "considered a great leader" and a "military man" is included as an Informed Attribute on his character page and I'd agree Sansa's intelligence as portrayed on the show is on the side of Informed Attribute).

With Meet the In-Laws, the example fits the trope to me. Dany does sense Sansa's dislike of her In-Universe and Sansa does sees Dany as her brother's disagreeable girlfriend who he's too smitten with. Maybe 'annoying' isn't the right word though.

However, perhaps the 'Dany is confused as to why a girl she has just met is treating her so rudely' piece can be cut because that might be audience projection because I don't think Dany has expressed confusion but annoyance?

First could be cleaned up, the biggest reason it's an Informed Attribute is that Arya's spent a long time away from Sansa, and last she knew, she thought Sansa was an airheaded git who just cared about boring lady stuff and boys.

The fact that all she's seen Sansa do since then is... almost be played by Littlefinger despite having Bran on her side is... yeah. Informed.

Meet the In-Laws applies, though.

• Informed Attribute: Arya declares that Sansa is the smartest person she's ever met. Prior to reuniting last season after years apart, they disliked each other because Arya was active and adventurous while Sansa was passive and focused on becoming a wife. Since their reunion, Littlefinger almost conned Sansa into killing Arya. While Sansa shows competence and foresight in preparing for winter, she hasn't made any remarkably intelligent decisions around Arya that would earn such praise.

• Meet the In-Laws: Sansa is hostile towards Daenerys even before their first meeting. She treats Daenerys as her brother's unlikable girlfriend taking over their home while he's too smitten with her, and Daenerys is suspicious of Sansa's distrust and perceives her as disrespecting her future queen.

I think those read well!

I think the Sam and Dany one would fit because they are having a pleasant conversation until Sam reveals he's a Tarly, prompting Dany to reveal the execution.

Not sure about Bran and the dragon. Maybe? The only thing is, the topic of conversation being discussed before Bran drops the news isn't related and Bran suddenly interjects with that news. So I'm 50/50 on that one.

These are my thoughts as well. Shall I add an example for Sam and Dany?

I'm for it! :)

I'm the one who removed that. I don't think Jon was taking Arya's line "don't forget that" as a threat, I saw it as quite the opposite. I think it was reassurance that he is part of that family. More than that, I think this line is setting up the scene for the fall out of Jon's parentage: when everyone learns Jon isn't Ned Stark's son — that no matter who his biological father is, Jon is still part of their family (like Jon's conversation with Theon last season). It's sort of difficult to use facial expressions as proof but I really don't think Jon was taking that as a threat. That's only my interpretation though.

In regard to Dany, I would say that is more ambiguous but we don't know what Dany was going to say so I don't think that can be taken as an Implied Death Threat as the trope is written. Dany does allow people to question her. She doesn't burn people for disrespect but for outright disobedience and rebellion.

Those are my thoughts :)

Jon's face is a clear Oh, Crap! face, whatever "fallout" people are theorizing or not has no bearing on that, not to mention that when that conversation takes place, he still doesn't yet know about how they're not as close family as they think they are. Whatever he's feeling, it is not reassurance or really anything positive. He's worried, and what could he be worried about after what Arya tells him?

As for Daenerys, the Tarlys didn't disobey her nor they rebelled, they were commanders of an opposing army and, thus, they were prisoners of war. But regardless of how her actions have been rationalized, I suppose I'll admit that maybe she wasn't going to say that she was going to have Sansa executed, but in what way could someone complete that sentence that didn't end in some sort of punishment?

Dany does give an Implied Death Threat when Sansa talks about the food situation in public and mentions the large army and feeding the dragons, and Sansa asks What do Dragons eat? and Daenerys says, "Whatever they like".

So that's an Implied Death Threat there. But the other stuff no it isn't. Dany isn't telling Sam the story of her father and brother's death to threaten him, but to tell the truth about it. It's not far from Ned Stark executing people and then telling his son that he owes it to own up to your actions and look people in the eye and so on.

I largely agree with Revolutionary_Jack here. The high table exchange might qualify, but I took that more as snark rather than anything serious.

In regard to the rest, phylos, I'm sorry, I don't see what you're seeing. All I saw was Jon hearing what Arya said and hugging her again, not taking it as a threat.

When I mentioned the fall-out, I was speaking about the writers placing in lines to foreshadow reactions. But that's just a theory. I don't know for sure.

Dany gave the Tarlys a choice and they chose death. Dany was clear that she wouldn't take prisoners. In regard to Sansa, I can't say what Dany was going to finish her sentence with because we don't hear the end of the sentence. She may have ended the sentence by threatening some sort of punishment, yeah, but I don't know. Based on what was said, I don't think it's enough to qualify for an Implied Death Threat because I can't remember Dany ever burning somebody for simply being disrespectful. I think we'd need to hear the end of the sentence to know for sure.

Those are my views. I welcome other views!

I think I wasn't clear, I didn't say that Daenerys was threatening Sam, but in her conversation with Jon, there was an implied threat towards Sansa.

"As for not seeing what I'm seeing": https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/jonandaryagameofthroness8e1.jpeg?quality=85 (links don't seem to work so it'll have to be copypasted). That's the face of a happy, reassured guy, I suppose.

And precisely, we don't know, the writers could be foreshadowing the Starks supporting Jon despite him being cousin and not brother, or they could be foreshadowing the Starks completely turning on him because of his submitting to Daenerys.

And you seem to be arguing that for something to be an implied death threat, it... should be an explicit death threat, apparently. For an implication, I thought we were to look at what wasn't said, or what is said elsewhere to infer context. Correct me if I'm mistaken on that. Daenerys was going to say something about Sansa for not respecting her, and the next time she says anything to someone other than Jon, is to tell Sam that she had his family executed for not bending the knee.

Since this is going into YMMV territory, I suggest we all put a pin in it. There is one thing you can put in that bit where Sansa gets huffy about feeding the army and the dragons, and Dany says that the Dragons will always find something to eat.

Yeah, I made it an alternate character interpretation. Went over twitter for a bit and yeah, there seems to be many people who took Arya's line in one way and just as many who took it in another so that's the safest place to write this. Thanks for posting your interpretations =)

Yeah, I can agree with YMMV. Putting a pin in this seems best.

We're going to have to agree to disagree :)

(EDIT: I wrote this long reply but I lost it when I went back to add the 'agree with YMMV' part. But I think sticking a pin in this is best at this time!)

"And you seem to be arguing that for something to be an implied death threat, it... should be an explicit death threat, apparently. For an implication, I thought we were to look at what wasn't said, or what is said elsewhere to infer context. Correct me if I'm mistaken on that. Daenerys was going to say something about Sansa for not respecting her, and the next time she says anything to someone other than Jon, is to tell Sam that she had his family executed for not bending the knee."

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing it should be an explicit death threat. What I'm saying is we don't know what Dany was going to say and we'd need to know this in order to infer an implied death threat. Otherwise, we're guessing at what she might say and would be inferring from that guess. In my opinion, I don't think that's enough to qualify for the trope.

Re: the facial expression in the linked still. I think facial expressions can be tough because they can mean so many different things. Truthfully, I had been basing my observations on the episode footage itself but in that still, I think Jon could be brooding over all sorts of things: if he's done the best thing, if Sansa/Arya/Dany will ever be on the same side, what he'll do if that doesn't happen, etc. YMMV appears to be a good compromise :)

I hope that clears my position up a bit :)

He has the exact same face in the actual footage. You can link to a picture of the actual footage if he makes a different expression, because in the episode I saw, he still has the same somber expression.

Again, I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I'm sorry. I've watched that scene a few dozen times. I'm just not seeing it. Facial expressions can be interpreted so many different ways and we're clearly seeing two very different things from the same footage/still.

I'm not discussing anymore what his expression means, I'm addressing this bit in particular: "Truthfully, I had been basing my observations on the episode footage itself but in that still".

Don't know how that is relevant given that he has the same expression on the episode footage itself.

In the episode footage, it's a different angle, there's movement which can provide some context, so as a result, it can create subtle shifts in an expression for me. But between the still and the episode footage, I'd say there's not much of a difference. To me, he looks a bit more broody in the photo, but I wouldn't interpret it as an Oh, Crap! face or worry — it's a furrowed brow he often has, especially in intense emotional stuff like this.

Specifically the point here is that phylos keeps trying to put this point:

• Both Sides Have a Point: Jon believes that his family is focusing on titles instead of the fact that he brought two armies and two dragons, but Sansa points out that if he ostracizes the Northern lords, they still won't stand much of a chance and we see at least one of them refusing aid to Winterfell because of Jon's decision.decision, meanwhile Bran notes to everyone that the only thing that the alliance with Daenerys has gotten them so far is giving the White Walkers a dragon.

Now in that scene, Bran is telling everyone the Wall has fallen and Night King has a dragon. Phylos is interpreting that as Bran bashing Dany specifically. I don't think that's the case. He's merely stating and reporting stuff in his usual spaced out way. Trying to make a case that Bran is using that to attack Dany is ACI and YMMV

And again need I remind everyone that Dany went there to save Jon's life, and Jon went on that expedition at Tyrion's recommendation and against Dany's advice. It wasn't her fault in the least. Unless you think Dany should have let Jon die. Guys, play favorites in the YMMV but don't editorialize the main page description. Learn to share.

I have seen the opposite tendency, tropers deleting any negative thing Daenerys does or framing the descriptions of tropes in ways that downplay Daenerys as a factor, at least when something bad happened, even ignoring what the episode itself notes. This is not a Daenerys fan page, is meant to describes what happens in the episodes as is.

^ Agreed, the bashing is uncalled for. Regarding this bit:

• Both Sides Have a Point: [...] meanwhile Bran notes to everyone that the only thing that the alliance with Daenerys has gotten them so far is giving the White Walkers a dragon.

It was re-added with the reasoning: "Bran's words: "The Night King has your dragon, he's one of them now." Before deleting again, open a discussion if you disagree, but Bran did specifically singled out Daenerys."

Are there any more dragons that we don't know about? What was Bran supposed to say? "They have a dragon"? All three are Dany's dragons.

Edit: @Tropers/Revolutionary_Jack, you beat me to it :)

And if we are going by what Tyrion said vs what Daenerys said: the wight hunt was his idea, but Daenerys joining was entirely hers, and he tried to stop her from going. And it is a moot point anyway, the dragons are not Tyrion's, they are Daenerys's, the only reason she could go and thus, the Night King got a dragon, is because of the alliance with her and her forces. Nobody bashed her, but it is Daenerys's army, not Tyrion's.

I don't appreciate the "spaced out way" remark, I've been nothing but civil.

I agree with your interpretation here, Revolutionary Jack. Based on the dialogue, "We don't have time for all this. The Night King has your dragon. He's one of them now. The Wall has fallen, the dead march south," Bran isn't blaming the alliance as he hasn't even mentioned the alliance.

@phylos: So we are saying that Tyrion's plan was to get Jon Snow killed and he wanted Dany to let Jon Snow die. So according to you, Dany should let Jon Snow die, I want you to say that if that's your opinion on the matter. Because saying that Dany should not have gone is that.

Any case, we have discussed this...3 posters in favor of removal over your 1. So it's gone.

... Wait, you were accusing me of putting stuff that should be YMMV in the main page, but are asking me if according to me "Daenerys should let Jon Snow die"? How is that even relevant, how should what "according to me is" be even a factor? I'm not nor should I cast opinion either way, what remains is that Tyrion did try to stop Daenerys from going, that's what happened in the episode. Huh?

Majority wins indeed, however.