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JackSlack
topic
09:20:34 PM May 10th 2010
edited by JackSlack
Regarding the Dragon Age example:

It occurs to me more expanation of my edit there is needed, but it's inappropriate to commit to the main page.

The passage that I think prompted a previous editor to suggest that Cailan was attempting to turn the country over to Orlais was this:

(This letter appears to have been crumpled then carefully smoothed out and folded again) Cailan, The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden. — "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan"

I see the idea, but the claim of 'permanent alliance' is a hell of a distance from "turning over the country". The real thing here is the difference between Logaine's worldview (formed during the occupation of Fereldan by the Orlesians) of Orlais as an incredibly powerful enemy who would love to reconquer Fereldan, and the current reality (that Orlais is not currently hostile to Fereldan, and retaking the country would be a costly endeavour it does not care to endure).

Basically, I think the poster is Completely Missing The Point. Those letters imply that Cailan was secretly having an affair with the empress of Orlais, but it doesn't infer that he was traitorous.

Turtler
10:13:45 PM Aug 17th 2010
In a feudal world where politics and personal relationships (up to AND including marraige) are so intertwined as to be effectively conjoined, it is difficult to say anything for certain, but even the simple fact that Cailan and Celene were having an affair would have sent up red flags in real life given how land transfers can happen amongst royalty via marraige, it is probable that an alliance would have been the very LEAST that would have happened, particularly considering the possibilities of Celene just using Cailan to prepare for a move on Fereldan in general. It's not 100% certain proof, but it is enough to be highly suspicious of, particularly that even if Cailan wasn't treasonous it might leave the door open for another occupation anyway.
A.Rex
topic
05:30:28 PM Jun 17th 2010
What happened to the image? (don't try to give justification for removing it. There is none)
gumbal1
topic
05:31:25 PM Jul 23rd 2010
We need to clean up the Playing With section of Completely Missing The Point.
Hungertoad
01:04:00 PM Aug 6th 2010
Would that happen to be the subverted and double subverted points? Because I wasn't that sure if that would work when I wrote it
JDCyrus
topic
09:40:06 PM Aug 8th 2010
I'm not sure whether I like the new image or the old one better (the old one definitely benefited from the caption), but either way I think we can do better. If anyone finds a better image, try posting it; I will if I find one. (I suspect that the current image is a very good illustration of a trope, but not this one. Not sure which one, though.)
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
09:57:26 PM Aug 8th 2010
Recommend that we not use an image that is clearly a Real Life example.
68.96.198.72
topic
12:53:54 AM Oct 14th 2010
edited by 68.96.198.72
You know what's really this trope? When another troper brought up a valid point about subjectivity of a character and whether or not they counted as The Wesley or not and went into a completely different direction with it.

Funny, isn't it?
TVG
topic
08:22:37 PM Mar 13th 2011
I've noted how much this trope gets potholed as a criticism of prose laid by earlier tropes, or general snark at a third party, which I do believe should be addressed somehow, perhaps by blanking the page and making this trope a permanent red link, or at the very least discouraging a pothole.
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