Thanks for bringing it over here.
Like I mentioned in the pm, I have trouble with the trope in general. Not so much because I think Hydra is in any way less bad if they're "just" a totalitarian/fascist regime, but because of the way the argument that Cap has been turned into a Nazi has been used in the reception of the book in general. It's not being discussed as a dystopian story that is anti-fascist (a discussion which could for example contain questions if it is ultimately successful in that or not) but as some strange attempt to slander a fictional character's name, or a Nazi power fantasy.
I do think you made some pretty good points, though. Especially about Erskine getting slandered in the hydra-fied history books because he's jewish. Is that from the Deadpool tie-ins?
Edited by hollygoolightly
That was in SE#1, in the school scene.
And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good...
Sorry for replying so late, it took me a while to locate my issue. Erskine did indeed get erased from the history books, but it's never specified that this happened because he was Jewish. We know from CA:SR that Erskine was murdered by Hydra because they wanted to stop him from continuing the Super Soldier programme. Since the new text claims that Zola, who was brought in next, allegedly sabotaged the US program and build "vastly superior" super soldiers for Hydra - which is something we know never happened, because Zola never managed to replicate Erskine's success in any timeline - I figured that he is maligned in the new history lessons because Zola is jealous of him, and hates losing to him. And it's very possible Zola is also antisemitic in his dislike of Erskine, but Erskine isn't specifically slandered on that level in the text.
Edited by hollygoolightly
Thing is, Armin Zola, as per the canon, is a confirmed member of the Nazi party, so there's definitively the racism subtext there.
And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good...
From Zola, absolutely, in addition to his professional jealousy. But Erskine was erased from the history books, because Hydra doesn't want to admit that he was the one who originally created the Serum, and that he was the only one who ever succeeded in creating a Super Soldier - it's never explicitly stated that it happened because he's Jewish. For Hydra to be a Nazi equivalent in this, antisemitism should be the first reason for removing Erskine from his right place in history.
Again, that still doesn't make them come out clean, because at least Steve - and allegedly Elisa - bloody well know that Erskine was the one who invented the Super Soldier serum in Steve's Hydra past, and not Zola.
I'd like to add that Spencer tried to argue that this trope was averted, both within the comic and in the real world in his interviews under A Nazi by Any Other Name, but not sure how — but well, he failed
And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good...
To be honest, I actually still disagree with you that it's not averted. I have no problem leaving the trope in the list, but shouldn't stuff like "Spencer said that, but he doesn't convince me" be in YMMV or trivia?
To my knowledge, Zemo isn't a Nazi, that's why I removed him from the list.
I think it's clear why I removed the whitewashing argument. Nobody is saying that HYDRA is any better here than they were under Red Skull, and being a authoritarian cult tending towards fascism and totalitarianism is not in any way a positive potrayal.
Zemo with swastika branded swords in Secret Empire
https://twitter.com/FizzVsTheWorld/status/895363930888953856
Also, the problem, again, is that Spencer and Alonso have been on record on interviews stating that Hydra is not Nazi and you shouldn't read them as Nazis — but time and time again, Hydra, under Steve's control, is perfectly with Nazis.
Edited by Klaudandus And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good...
Yeah, those are Zemo's family swords, which he inherited from his father. Who was a Nazi. That doesn't make him one.
Marvel has repeatedly pointed out that Hydra aren't Nazis because they are a cult that is thousands of years old, and they have been that for ages in Marvel continuity. Red Skull was always a Nazi, but he's not the founder of Hydra. Von Strucker was a Nazi, but he isn't the founder of Hydra, either. And Hydra in Secret Empire is fascist and totalitarian, and there are Nazis among their number, but they don't follow a policy of racially motivated genocide, which means they aren't Nazis.
And this is exactly when I talk about the whitewashing/sanitation of Hydra prior to Steve taking over it.
"Hydra can't be Nazis because it was founded by space snake people thousands of years ago — also it doesn't matter that Steve is perfectly ok with having actual Nazis in his council, they're still not Nazis!" /sarcasm
Also, there might not be genocide, but wow... Hydra States sure don't like Inhumans and Mutants...
Edited by Klaudandus And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good...
But that's not whitewashing. Hydra started out as a completely generic bad guy troupe. They did not start out as Nazis. The MCU had them start out as Nazis, that's where that idea comes from.
And Marvel tries to make clear that they aren't Nazis to be able to portray a more generic kind of evil, oppressive, totalitarian, fascist group that isn't tied to very specific elements - not to make Hydra look better, which is very obvious when you read Secret Empire, but to be able to do a story about how tempting it is to choose a path that promises security and ends up with everyone in chains. As you point out, they have no qualms to ally with Nazis, with white supremacists, with dictators - but it's a lot easier to show great parts of the population fall into line with them, even show heroes fall into line with them, when they are not obviously the No. 1 go to Evil Guys in pop culture. And that's why Spencer and Alonso kept saying they aren't Nazis - not to make Hydra look cooler or appear more palable, but to be able to portray evil with a less than obvious face.
You could always still say that people disagree about the result - I mean, we disagree, obviously. But calling it whitewashing is really misunderstanding what they were trying to do here.
Edited by hollygoolightly
Nightmare
Barf as a Deus Ex Machina
From the Deus ex Machina page
Note that there are a number of requirements for a sudden plot development to be a Deus ex Machina:
- Deus ex Machina are solutions to a problem. They are never unexpected developments that make things worse, nor sudden twists that only change the understanding of a story.
- Deus ex Machina are sudden or unexpected. This means that even if they are featured, referenced or set-up earlier in the story, they do not change the course of nor appear as a natural or a viable solution to the plotline they eventually "solve".
- Deus ex Machina are used to resolve a situation portrayed as unsolvable or hopeless. If the problem could be solved with a bit of common sense or other type of simple intervention, the solution is not a Deus ex Machina no matter how unexpected it may seem.
- Deus Ex Machina are external to the characters and their choices throughout the story. The solution comes from a character with small or non-existent influence on the plot until that point or random chance from nature or karma.
Barf fits one of the criteria
Just because he was referenced earlier, it doesn't make him non Deus Ex Machina, as per the page itself
Edited by Klaudandus And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good... Hide / Show Replies
He wasn't just referenced earlier, he appears. He uses his powers to produce a Cap lunchbox his younger brother wants very badly, and then he is imprisoned as part of Hydra's move to imprison the Inhumans. That's why he's a Chekhov's Gunman. You see him use the power and he's left alive, so it's reasonably set up that he could appear again and use the power for something more relevant.
He also doesn't just pop up again out of the blue, the heroes find him because they finally decide to act and free the Inhumans, who by that time are well into a prison break of their own, thanks to Brian/"Barf."
I mean, you could argue that he's a Living MacGuffin I guess. Anybody else have any opinion on this?
Edited by hollygoolightly
There would also be the possibility to just keep both? I think there is enough room for either interpretation, really.
Not saying he's not a Chekhovs Gunman, saying that he's also a Deus Ex Machina and thus shouldn't be removed from the Deus Ex Machina entry
And when I said referenced, I meant shown in Secret Empire #1, powers and all, but then chucked to the wayside between issue #2 and #7
Edited by Klaudandus And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good...
Well, chucked into prison, more like. But that's probably splitting hairs.
Personally I think that Deus Ex Machina and Chekhovs Gunman shouldn't even be possible to overlap, but I think that is really a discussion for another forum (literally; wherever we're supposed to discuss tropes and their distinction from neighbouring tropes). I'm fine with keeping both in this case.
I opened for discussion on the forums
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15024972240A79738500&page=1#1
Tho I still think they're not mutually exclusive, at least in this case.
I mean, I saw a previous discussion that Foreshadowing and Chekhovs Gun share overlap.
Edited by Klaudandus And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good...
I would agree with that, actually. Chekhov's Gun is sort of foreshadowing in itself - if we stay with our example, it's possible to deduce that Barf's ability will come in handy for a more important object than a lunchbox later on.
I mainly see a difference between Deus ex Machina and Chekhov's Gun because Deus ex Machina is more of a judgement, if you will - not as harsh as an Ass Pull, but there is an accusation of this being impossible to guess from what we've seen before. And I think that's not really the case here.
btw, I meant to say this before, thanks for letting us talk about this and the previous topic reasonably and drama-free. I know the event is incredibly controversial and there have been many heated arguments, so that wasn't guaranteed.
Re: Hulk's situation in Issue #6: He does fight the heroes, and then the android avengers, and then he turns grey and collapses. Since Zola and Steve talked about his revival being only temporary, I figured he simply ran out of whatever energy they zapped him with, and died again.
Are we sure Red Skull will be the big bad of Secret Empire? All articles show that it's Steve and Solicitation for issues before Secret Empire Red Skull will be taken care off before the event.
Plus Elisa Sinclair's new Hydra High Council will be working for Hydra Steve.
"They truly were a Aqua Teen Hunger Force"
Just to reiterate, re: A Nazi by Any Other Name
Given the nature of Hydra and their actions within the event and it's tie-ins, it's hard to claim this trope is mostly averted.
And there is always someone who will take it upon himself. Always. Always. Always. I have become evil, but once I, too, was good... Hide / Show Replies