Discussion Characters / DragonBallPiccolo

In the Viz manga, there was some dialogue between Kami and Mr. Popo, where they said that the fact that Raditz's soul showed up in the other world indicated that Piccolo Jr. was no longer the "Great Demon King", and how it was related to Piccolo being much less evil than before. King Piccolo was considered a demon, as they heavily implied his victim's souls (Krillin, Master Roshi, Chiaot Zu) didn't make it to the afterlife. They seen to infer that "being a demon" is correlated with how evil Piccolo was, not his actual species.

If they had stated "Piccolo was never a demon" that would be a retcon, but they do seem to be consistent with calling King Piccolo Snr. and Piccolo Jr. in DB as demons. They just expanded upon the definition. Basically in Dragon Ball, "Demon" was just a general term for "evil monster that no one knows the origin of".

He was called less evil, not that he wasn't a demon. The term 'Great Demon King' is the title of King Piccolo. Meaning, they're saying he wasn't the same as King Piccolo anymore.

King Piccolo and all his children were also called a specific type of demon from a clan. He wasn't considered a demon, he was a demon created by Kami's expelling his evil. So them going back back and trying to explain why Piccolo was classified as a demon when he was an alien is a retcon.

Also, demon is a type of creature in the Dragon World. It doesn't just mean a monster of unknown origins. Like Dabura is a demon from the Demon Realm and Majin Buu is a type of demon created from absorbing the evil from mortals.

I'm pretty sure they said Piccolo lost his status as a demon, due to the Raditz's souls making it to afterlife. Not just the title.

Well King Piccolo was still created from Kami expelling his evil, that never changed, regardless of whether he was an alien. He would basically be a demon of Namekian origin. If you're saying Piccolo being classified as an alien is a retcon, since he wasn't classed as an alien before, then by that logic Kami was originally a demon too since it was unknown he was Namekian either.

What I mean is "demon" is a very big label for a number of creatures, they don't have a fixed appearance. It's a pretty general term for "evil magical creature".

No he didn't. Piccolo himself continued to call himself the Demon King until he sacrificed himself to save Gohan. Kami even said that Piccolo was still evil, but he wasn't as evil as before since Goku and Raditz were allowed to to ingo the after life.

The retcon is him being an alien and not a demon. King Piccolo and his children came from a specific demon clan. And you can make an argument that Kami was originally a demon since he got caught in the Evil Containment Wave. However, Kami's origins was never stated. We had no clue what he was.

And you're wrong. Demon is a type of creature, not a broad term for 'evil magical creature'. All creatures that are demons are called demons like Dabura and Buu. Even when Buu became good, he's still classified as a demon.

Alright I've dug out the manga scan: http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v18/c013/6.html

Kami clearly says: "I knew that something was amiss when Raditz's soul, after he was killed by Piccolo, ended up in the underworld. Usually the souls killed by demons cannot rest in peace"

This heavily implies that Piccolo's old victims didn't make it to the otherworld, because he was still considered a demon prior to that.

It was always established that Kami and Piccolo were once the same individual, so obviously they were the same species. Kami was never called a demon, so logically demon didn't refer to Piccolo's race.

So you're telling me that Dabura and Buu are the same species and can interbreed? Of course not. So more than one creature falls under the banner of "demon".

He was called a demon because that is what he was, regardless of his powers. Demons don't have the same powers. Dabura is also a demon, and all his victims go to the after life when they die and Piccolo's spit didn't turn people into stone. Goku and Raditz were allowed to go into the after life because Piccolo wasn't as evil anymore, not that he wasn't a demon.

Kami's origins were never stated. Whether he was a demon that turned good or it was just his evil side that turned into a demon because it's pure evil was never stated. And you can make an argument that Kami was a demon because he got caught in the Evil Containment Wave that seals demons.

The Buu and Dabura question doesn't work because Saiyans and humans can interbreed, and they're not the same species. Tien also came from an alien parent in the distance past. So, it doesn't really matter if Buu and Dabura can interbreed or not, since we already have several cases of different species having babies, and species like the Namekians lay eggs don't need to breed with someone of the opposite sex.

Dragon Ball was pretty clear that those killed by demons don't make it to the afterlife, and the conversation between Kami and Popo used that condition to assert whether Piccolo was still a demon or not. Uh, not all demons are like Dabura. Buu's spit doesn't turn people to stone either, while Dabura can't turn people into candy. That argument is invalid. Then how come characters who are even more evil than Piccolo (Vegeta, Frieza, Cell), had victims that went to the afterlife? They made the "go to the afterlife" thing a subconscious effect of being killed by demons, not "Piccolo was so cruel he intentionally made his victims souls get trapped in limbo".

The Evil Containment Wave actually wasn't restricted to demons, it was to catch magical beings, that's what it says on the wiki. Furthermore, Piccolo altered the technique a bit with a different incantation. They just said Kami was God.

That's not the point. Dabura and Buu are clearly not the same type of creature, as their biologies are far too different, yet according to you they are both classed as demons. Furthermore, Buu's species is actually a Majin, which means demon doesn't refer to the species. There are many species where their members can become demons, not a single species restricted to "demons".

No, it's clear anyone related to King Piccolo and his family are barred from the after life. Dabura is a demon and his victims go to the after life, the same with Buu. Also, Buu's candy power came from him absorbing the Supreme Kais. My point, not all demons have the same powers, which you yourself point out. If anything, your statements shows that Toriyama retcon how demons work since Dabura and Buus demons, yet they bar souls from the afterlife.

And King Piccolo would be more evil than Vegeta, Frieza, and Cell since he's pure evil. He is the evil within Kami personified, which is why he can't be put on the Complete Monster list. Vegeta, Cell, and Frieza are evil on their own free will, and none of them were classified as pure evil or evil itself like Piccolo or Kid Buu. Also, who is more evil is subjective since Cell technically has a lower kill count than all the major villains.

On Dragon Ball wiki is infamously known for getting facts wrong, so using anything from there is invalided. Piccolo also didn't alter the technique, he only reflected it back like a mirror.

It doesn't matter if Dabura and Buu can or cannot interbreed since we have seen different species and aliens interbreed in Dragon Ball, and we have the Namekians who don't interbreed at all. Buu and Dabura are called demons, with Dabura being the Demon King, the same title as King Piccolo. And what other species are you referring to?

The point is, Dragon Ball have classified demons as it's own type and Piccolo, Dabura, and Buu are all called demons, with King Piccolo and his family having the ability to bar others from the after life, before it was changed to them just being mutated aliens.

Well what got retconned was "demons' victims don't go to the afterlife", not "Piccolo was never a demon", or more likely Toriyama just forgot about it since he has such a bad memory. Buu's power coming from Supreme Kai is complete 100% speculation on your part. Even if he "learned" it from Supreme Kai, the fact still remains he's capable of doing it while Dabura can't. Dabura and Buu's powers work differently because they are different. Dabura looks like the devil, while Buu is a pile of shapeshifting pink goo.

Okay, that is BS. King Piccolo is clearly less evil than those guys based on the crimes he did. He wanted to conquer the world and rule it, and killed those that annoyed him. The other villains just went and wiped out entire species and planets. King Piccolo was the evil part of an originally mostly good being, so the evil was never that prominent to begin with, compared to beings that were completely evil to begin with. Frieza is pretty much the Hitler of Dragon Ball, and the most evil "natural being" in existence.

Evil Containment Wave =/= Evil Containment Wave Reflection. It has a different name "Mafuba Gaeshi". Well it isn't any less valid than your own interpretations.

You've completely lost me what you're talking about there. All I'm saying is Buu's species =/= Dabura's species. What's so hard to understand about that?

And what I'm trying to say is, Dragon Ball basically said "demons" (at least Piccolo's type) is just another word for mutated aliens. Those people on Earth didn't know what Piccolo actually was, so just called him a demon. Revealing what Piccolo's species actually was didn't retcon anything, he still displayed a demon's powers and habits.

Not it's not. Kid Buu has never shown to be able to turn people into candy, and we have seen the Supreme Kais able to create and change stuff on a whim. And that really doesn't prove anything. It just showed that Dabura and Buu have different magical abilities. For example, Krillin has no nose and Chiaotzu is classified as a human/Earthling, yet he looks like a living china doll who never grows. So someone looking different doesn't mean they don't come from the same species, especially in Dragon Ball.

That is not BS. King Piccolo being less evil than the other villains is subjective. Piccolo didn't just want to conquer the world, he went out of his way to torture people like freeing all the prisoners and letting them committee crimes without punishment, and did you forget he was going to blow up a piece of the world every years by lottery for the next 36 years? Also, Piccolo was stated to be pure evil. The other major villains are not, except Kid Buu. Which, again, is the only reason why King Piccolo isn't on the Complete Monster list, the same with Kid Buu.

No, I am saying that the mutant alien is the retcon. Piccolo and his children were called demons all the way up to Nappa calling Piccolo a Namekian. Piccolo also called himself a demon along with Kami calling Piccolo a demon. It wasn't just something people called him. And what demon habits are you referring to?

They never said Buu couldn't do that before, and they also never said Grand Supreme Kai could turn people into candy. "Not being shown" and "confirmed" is entirely different. And even if we assume Buu didn't know that, he could have just learned that along the way, since he literally learns techniques in seconds.

Well if you're going that direction there is literally no limitation. Every unnamed species in Dragon Ball could be related if you use that logic. I could say Dodoria and Puipui were of the same species that looked different, just because their species are never named. And again, Buu's species is a Majin, it's clearly defined in Dragon Ball Online and Xenoverse.

Krillin stated in-universe that the Saiyans were far more evil than Piccolo ever was, comparing Piccolo to "the kid next door" I think he said. Yes I know he wanted to blow up a piece of the world, but it still wasn't as bad as the Saiyans. Piccolo actually gave many of the humans a chance to live, even if he made it so that their lives were always at risk. The Saiyans just committed genocide with every planet they visited. King Piccolo may have been made up of all the evil from Kami, but there wasn't that much evil to begin with, it was just residual evil. Vegeta called himself pure evil, that statement doesn't mean anything.

They were demons, because the people of Earth labelled those mutated aliens as "demons". They never said Piccolo was born from the Demon Realm or wherever Dabura came from, before suddenly going "that wasn't true, he actually came from a planet called Namek". His origin was unclear, and DBZ gave him a solid backstory. Expanding upon an explanation is not a retcon. Directly contradicting an established fact (like Future Trunks' hair being blue in Super when it was purple in Z) is a retcon. I'm referring to Piccolo's powers being called "demonic powers", like his eye lasers and telekinesis.

Moderator notice: So as long as the discussion has not concluded, you must not keep deleting the retcon example, Snowy 66. We don't do fait accomplis here.

Alright, sorry.