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Tahaneira
topic
08:37:01 PM Nov 15th 2013
Alright, just a fair warning, this discussion will have spoilers out the wazoo for pretty much everything. Anyone who doesn't want to partake, this is your emergency exit call.

Still here? Right, let's get on with it.

I'm seeing notes everywhere that Burial at Sea happens after the end of the main game, that this is "Elizabeth Prime" who survived the drowning of Booker. But is there any proof of that? I mean, due to the very nature of Infinite's universe, what exactly is stopping this from happening... during? Before? Concurrent with the events of the main game? Did the developers say something I missed?
Larkmarn
04:45:38 PM Nov 16th 2013
I don't think it's anything they've said so much as Elizabeth has to be (from her perspective) after the events of Infinite. Comstock himself is probably roughly concurrent (or even earlier) than the Comstock from Infinite.
Tahaneira
02:52:10 PM Nov 17th 2013
And it could be happening currently, as well. Elizabeth becomes omnipresent and omniscient during endgame, so nothing's stopping her from giving Booker her ending monologue while simultaneously sending a few of her other selves to tie up some loose ends and get some closure before everything ends.

Having an all-powerful Elizabeth survive endgame is the simplest answer, but my point is that we don't know for sure.
Larkmarn
03:21:22 PM Nov 17th 2013
Well, it has to be (from Elizabeth's perspective) taking place after she becomes The Omniscient and The Omnipresent. That leaves the five minutes before the end of the game or after the game.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more likely that it's in those final five minutes. Before Elizabeth eliminates all the Comstocks from existing, she's first making them suffer for what they did.
ijffdrie
topic
06:27:34 AM Sep 29th 2013
It seems wrong to list alternate self under just about every character. The only person who we get any hint might be an alternate version is booker himself, with the alternate version being jack. The constants between the universes are just the man, the lighthouse and the city. Any objections to cutting all the alternate self tropes but Booker's?
Discar
08:26:00 AM Sep 29th 2013
Yes, loads. Alternate Self also covers more direct alternate universe versions.
ijffdrie
06:45:33 PM Sep 29th 2013
But there's no indication whatsoever that they're direct counterparts. The trope examples themselves can't even pick which character they're supposed to be alternate selves to, as they only look at the vaguest character definition. Just because two characters are both female revolutionaries (which is pretty much the only thing Daisy and Lamb have in common, as far as I can see), does not make them alternate selves of one another. They have to actually be the same person, in different lives.

Hell, even Jack/booker doesn't work in accordance with the [[Alternate Self]] page, since they're not the same person with different lives, just fulfill similar roles in a story.
Larkmarn
07:44:24 PM Sep 29th 2013
Well obviously Booker, Elizabeth, the Lutece twins, and Comstock need their Alternate Self listing for spoiler reasons.

The others... well, they're basically entries for Expy with a dash of WMG thrown in due to the subject matter.

Lady Comstock is a massive stretch. Axe that.

Ditto Fink. The fact there are four potential alternate selves is a bad, bad sign.

Songbird... isn't that bad. The narrative obviously treats him as an alternate version of a Big Daddy, but he's not an Alternate Self in the strictest sense. But it fits the theme of trope well enough, given that Tropes Are Not Narrow.

Daisy's another "well, she has some parallels with these characters! Call it good!" Ditto Slate, Downs, and the Preacher.

ijffdrie
04:54:39 AM Sep 30th 2013
I'd argue Songbird would better be described as an in-universe expy rather than an alternate self.

So, keep Booker, Elizabeth, the lutece twins, comstock entries. Axe fink and lady comstock. Switch Daisy, Slate, Downs and the preacher to expy?
Discar
11:50:30 AM Sep 30th 2013
Well, the first part about the Lady Comstock example can be axed, but the second part is important.

Also, technically the rest would go under one of Expy's subtropes, but that whole rat's nest hasn't quite been untangled yet, so expy works for now.
Larkmarn
01:05:04 PM Sep 30th 2013
The reason why I didn't mention the second part of Lady Comstock's entry is I don't remember that implication anywhere.
Larkmarn
08:28:00 AM Oct 15th 2013
edited by 156.33.241.3
I'd like to deal with these.

Could someone explain where Lady Comstock is implied to be an alternate version of Booker's wife? Because I really can't remember that.

I really want to axe all the non-plot relevant Rapture Alternate Self / Expy entries, barring the Songbird. Having one similarity does not an Expy make.

Basically:
  • Leave Booker, Elizabeth, Lutece Twins, and Comstock's examples.
  • Move Songbird's to Expy. Also possibly move the Lutece Twin's connection to Tannenbaum to Expy.
  • Delete the rest, as well as Comstock's second example
Larkmarn
11:50:23 AM Nov 17th 2013
I carried it out. If someone wants to readd Lady Comstock as Booker's wife, they can if they can specifically remember how it was implied, because I have no recollection of it.
Larkmarn
08:59:09 AM Feb 24th 2014
Aaaaaaaaand these need cleanup again.

Lady Comstock is down as one for Jasmine Jolene, which is silly. Fink as Fontaine came back. Daisy is Atlas. And everyone is Andrew Ryan.

Discar
topic
08:59:53 PM Aug 2nd 2013
Somebody uncommented all the ZCE's without expanding them. I've requested the mods revert it (they have a rollback tool), so just stand by. Shouldn't take more than an hour or so.
Discar
topic
08:18:01 PM Jul 17th 2013
Right now, the page treats Elizabeth supposedly being Comstock's daughter as a spoiler. Is it, though? I mean, she was certainly surprised, but there are a bunch of posters everywhere talking about the seed of the prophet, and the audiologs weren't trying to keep it a secret. It just feels a little unnecessary, but I don't want to remove a bunch of spoiler tags if everyone else disagrees.
Larkmarn
05:33:14 AM Jul 18th 2013
I'd leave them. It becomes apparent not too long into the game, but it definitely isn't out in the open from the start. Plus, a decent portion of the beginning is sort of "yes, there's a ton of foreshadowing that she's his daughter, but is she for certain?" which... gets hilarious when her parentage is revealed.
pblades
topic
02:49:35 AM Apr 5th 2013
Why are the Snipers among the heavy hitters? If anything, I'd either the Volley Gunner or the ones with the RP Gs deserve the spot more.

The Snipers go down as easily as other mooks.
Larkmarn
05:37:45 AM Apr 5th 2013
Agreed. Always struck me as weird they're in there.
Eiliyan
topic
04:16:08 PM Apr 3rd 2013
How is it implied the Twins want to fuck each other? It strikes me as someone reading way too deeply into their tone of voice rather than anything which is actually intended.
lameasskid
08:06:52 PM Apr 5th 2013
There's only one bed in their lab and it's rather large. They've been living with each other for at least 19 years. In addition to that, Robert's threat of leaving Rosalind seems comparable to a man threatening to leave his girlfriend/wife over a disagreement. I suppose, it's open to interpretation, but Rosalind touching Robert's face when you encounter them at the raffle seems to be affectionate in a way brother's and sister's don't behave.
Iaculus
06:36:31 AM Apr 7th 2013
Also, we see them dancing a waltz. That's not hugely indicative on its own, but taken in the context of everything mentioned above...
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