Discussion History FanficRecs / KingdomHearts

So, it seems to me, the main reason you deny Ronald and Morinth should be on the list is because they weren\\\'t born as Complete Monsters, they became it after being \\\"normal\\\" at some point. My argument is, is that Complete Monsters are allowed to have a Freudian Excuses but they have to be far too weak to ever justify their actions. What the Freudian Excuse qualifier implies to me is that a person COULD have been \\\"normal\\\" at one point before becoming a Complete Monster, which is exactly the case with Morinth and Ronald. They were both \\\"normal people\\\" who went through an event that changed them. The qualifier doesn’t say this event had to have happened at childhood. Also, I feel I should mention that being a \\\"normal\\\" person doesn\\\'t mean they were GOOD people. Ronald and Morinth weren\\\'t implied to be saints who started homeless shelters and saved lepers. Nor were they implied to be woobies broken by a cruel world and lashing out at their surroundings. In fact, Ronald was implied to be a bit of a dick by Jacob, and an absentee father. It doesn’t matter who these two were in the past, what matters is, is that they’re monsters NOW.

I think a popular misconception for Complete Monsters is that they can’t have human and understandable motives, but instead they must be swirling voids of destruction and sociopathy. We can understand their motives but that doesn’t make their actions any better. For example: a corrupt corporate executive can dump his toxic waste near a local village, causing thousands of innocent deaths, but he wouldn\\\'t do it For the Evulz, he\\\'d do it for greed. People can understand the concept of greed and how it could motivate someone, but they could never justify undertaking such horrible actions for the sake of greed alone! They weren\\\'t people who \\\"did what they had to do\\\" for a greater good, they did what they WANTED to for their own comfort and enjoyment. Morinth desired freedom, that’s understandable. Ronald desired a life of relaxation and luxury, that’s understandable. The means to obtain these motives, serial killing and raping women with child-like minds, respectively, ISN’T ACCEPTABLE.

Also, as for the whole, “Morinth\\\'s onscreen crimes don\\\'t add up to other examples on the list” point, that\\\'s a matter of perspective. Balak from the Bring Down the Sky DLC definitely counts as a Complete Monster in my books because he tried to kill an entire planet! However, that makes me recognize Balak as a Complete Monster from an objective standpoint (you know attempted planet-killing being a Moral Event Horizon in general), but I never felt a personal investment in his actions until he killed those hostages, one of which I’d gotten to know. Watching those videos with Nef, and meeting her grieving mother struck me far harder than seeing a planet be wasted would’ve been, because in the former case there’s an emotional investment on the part of the player while in the latter case it’s A Million is a Statistic. Also I’d say killing Samara and Shepard (even if it did end with a Non-Standard Gameover) count as pretty horrific themselves, seeing as the player has emotional investment in both of them most likely. The former action she does with sadistic relish (contrast that with Samara’s quiet regret if she kills Morinth), the latter she does despite Shepard having saved her from her mother and taking a chance in her, believing that there might be something good in her.

One last thing, I don’t really think Samara counts as an Unreliable Narrator in regards to Morinth. In fact she’s pretty much a straight shooter. She’ll tell a Renegade Shepard that she’d kill him if she ever meets him again, she tells the Eclipse Merc that she’ll have no choice but to kill her if she doesn’t comply to her demands, and she even tells the police officer who has to temporarily detain her that she’ll kill her if she’s not released soon. She adheres to the Justicar\\\'s code but she tells people up front if they do anything illegal in front of her then she will have to kill them. She doesn\\\'t take any pleasure in it, in fact she always looks somehwat sad, but she IS honest about what she is and what is required of her. Besides, the transcript of the conversation with her other daughters from Lair of the Shadow Broker lends credence to her, Samara’s, side of the story.

So, it seems to me, the main reason you deny Ronald and Morinth should be on the list is because they weren\\\'t born as Complete Monsters, they became it after being \\\"normal\\\" at some point. My argument is, is that Complete Monsters are allowed to have a Freudian Excuses but they have to be far too weak to ever justify their actions. What the Freudian Excuse qualifier implies to me is that a person COULD have been \\\"normal\\\" at one point before becoming a Complete Monster, which is exactly the case with Morinth and Ronald. They were both \\\"normal people\\\" who went through an event that changed them. The qualifier doesn’t say this event had to have happened at childhood. Also, I feel I should mention that being a \\\"normal\\\" person doesn\\\'t mean they were GOOD people. Ronald and Morinth weren\\\'t implied to be saints who started homeless shelters and saved lepers. Nor were they implied to be woobies broken by a cruel world and lashing out at their surroundings. In fact, Ronald was implied to be a bit of a dick by Jacob, and an absentee father. It doesn’t matter who these two were in the past, what matters is, is that they’re monsters NOW.

I think a popular misconception for Complete Monsters is that they can’t have human and understandable motives, but instead they must be swirling voids of destruction and sociopathy. We can understand their motives but that doesn’t make their actions any better. For example: a corrupt corporate executive can dump his toxic waste near a local village, causing thousands of innocent deaths, but he wouldn\\\'t do it For the Evulz, he\\\'d do it for greed. People can understand the concept of greed and how it could motivate someone, but they could never justify undertaking such horrible actions for the sake of greed alone! They weren\\\'t people who \\\"did what they had to do\\\" for a greater good, they did what they WANTED to for their own comfort and enjoyment. Morinth desired freedom, that’s understandable. Ronald desired a life of relaxation and luxury, that’s understandable. The means to obtain these motives, serial killing and raping women with child-like minds, respectively, ISN’T ACCEPTABLE.

Also, as for the whole, “Morinth\\\'s onscreen crimes don\\\'t add up to other examples on the list” point, that\\\'s a matter of perspective. Balak from the Bring Down the Sky DLC definitely counts as a Complete Monster in my books because he tried to kill an entire planet! However, that makes me recognize Balak as a Complete Monster from an objective standpoint (you know attempted planet-killing being a Moral Event Horizon in general), but I never felt a personal investment in his actions until he killed those hostages, one of which I’d gotten to know. Watching those videos with Nef, and meeting her grieving mother struck me far harder than seeing a planet be wasted would’ve been, because in the former case there’s an emotional investment on the part of the player while in the latter case it’s A Million is a Statistic. Also I’d say killing Samara and Shepard (even if it did end with a Non-Standard Gameover) count as pretty horrific themselves, seeing as the player has emotional investment in both of them most likely. The former action she does with sadistic relish (contrast that with Samara’s quiet regret if she kills Morinth), the latter she does despite Shepard having saved her from her mother and taking a chance in her, believing that there might be something good in her.

One last thing, I don’t really think Samara counts as an Unreliable Narrator in regards to Morinth. In fact she’s pretty much a straight shooter. She’ll tell a Renegade Shepard that she’d kill him if she ever meets him again, she tells the Eclipse Merc that she’ll have no choice but to kill her if she doesn’t comply, and she even tells the police officer who has to temporarily detain her that she’ll kill her if she’s not released soon. Besides, the transcript of the conversation with her other daughters from Lair of the Shadow Broker lends credence to her, Samara’s, side of the story.

So, it seems to me, the main reason you deny Ronald and Morinth should be on the list is because they weren\\\'t born as Complete Monsters, they became it after being \\\"normal\\\" at some point. My argument is, is that Complete Monsters are allowed to have a Freudian Excuses but they have to be far too weak to ever justify their actions. What the Freudian Excuse qualifier implies to me is that a person COULD have been \\\"normal\\\" at one point before becoming a Complete Monster, which is exactly the case with Morinth and Ronald. They were both \\\"normal people\\\" who went through an event that changed them. The qualifier doesn’t say this event had to have happened at childhood. Also, I feel I should mention that being a \\\"normal\\\" person doesn\\\'t mean they were GOOD people. Ronald and Morinth weren\\\'t implied to be saints who started homeless shelters and saved lepers. Nor were they implied to be woobies broken by a cruel world and lashing out at their surroundings. In fact, Ronald was implied to be a bit of a dick by Jacob, and an absentee father. It doesn’t matter who these two were in the past, what matters is, is that they’re monsters NOW.
I think a popular misconception for Complete Monsters is that they can’t have human and understandable motives, but instead they must be swirling voids of destruction and sociopathy. We can understand their motives but that doesn’t make their actions any better. For example: a corrupt corporate executive can dump his toxic waste near a local village, causing thousands of innocent deaths, but he wouldn\\\'t do it For the Evulz, he\\\'d do it for greed. People can understand the concept of greed and how it could motivate someone, but they could never justify undertaking such horrible actions for the sake of greed alone! They weren\\\'t people who \\\"did what they had to do\\\" for a greater good, they did what they WANTED to for their own comfort and enjoyment. Morinth desired freedom, that’s understandable. Ronald desired a life of relaxation and luxury, that’s understandable. The means to obtain these motives, serial killing and raping women with child-like minds, respectively, ISN’T ACCEPTABLE.
Also, as for the whole, “Morinth\\\'s onscreen crimes don\\\'t add up to other examples on the list” point, that\\\'s a matter of perspective. Balak from the Bring Down the Sky DLC definitely counts as a Complete Monster in my books because he tried to kill an entire planet! However, that makes me recognize Balak as a Complete Monster from an objective standpoint (you know attempted planet-killing being a Moral Event Horizon in general), but I never felt a personal investment in his actions until he killed those hostages, one of which I’d gotten to know. Watching those videos with Nef, and meeting her grieving mother struck me far harder than seeing a planet be wasted would’ve been, because in the former case there’s an emotional investment on the part of the player while in the latter case it’s A Million is a Statistic. Also I’d say killing Samara and Shepard (even if it did end with a Non-Standard Gameover) count as pretty horrific themselves, seeing as the player has emotional investment in both of them most likely. The former action she does with sadistic relish (contrast that with Samara’s quiet regret if she kills Morinth), the latter she does despite Shepard having saved her from her mother and taking a chance in her, believing that there might be something good in her.
One last thing, I don’t really think Samara counts as an Unreliable Narrator in regards to Morinth. In fact she’s pretty much a straight shooter. She’ll tell a Renegade Shepard that she’d kill him if she ever meets him again, she tells the Eclipse Merc that she’ll have no choice but to kill her if she doesn’t comply, and she even tells the police officer who has to temporarily detain her that she’ll kill her if she’s not released soon. Besides, the transcript of the conversation with her other daughters from Lair of the Shadow Broker lends credence to her, Samara’s, side of the story.