Shin Megami Tensei Series

I find it funny that, for something called the Demon Gene, it was apparently supposed to let YHVH fuse angelic traits to humans. As anyone who's played Explosive Epidemic in Mikado can tell you, the results...are not pretty.

edited 23rd Aug '17 8:46:34 PM by dragonfire5000

No you are insisting your none existent implications are fact, when nothing ingame suggests or says they have ever been able to reverse engineer what they study or that they will be able to. In fact the laptop scene, the sole scene that even suggests they are learning how to use the bare minimum of technology, shows them struggling to write using the keys on a laptop, and were it not for the fact thst technology lasts far longer than it should for the narrative the digital records that are stored on it would stop working before they make any progress worth conceiving. Even then the setting suggests that their inability to reverse engineer is why they have to replace everything with Tokyo relics, which is exactly what K does for his broken fridge because the technology to do so doesn't exist. To top it off the only records they were recording were historical ones, things kept around Mikado for ages. The monks have been at this for a long time, and while they're trying to learn they aren't doing a good job to make genuine progress without a singular leader commanding them i.e. Hugo and they still struggle with the easiest things.

The problem is that you can say what they're doing is true, but all I see is the ingame biased perspectives of two-faced liars, which is even reflected in Merkabahs second form. The numerous lies that makes the motivations of what they say dubious and impossible for me to believe, and the Description of the Genes activation in IVA makes it impossible for me to believe Jonathans words in that ending, or that it's the world the Lord wishes when His core motivation is worship and praise. A timebomb set to go off fits His objectives than a kingdom that supposedly lasts forever, yet despite 1500 years has never gone beyond Masakados back. Even the villages that take several days travel are still on Masakados back and is why the entire nation had to be escorted below the surface.

There is also the fact that Japan doesn't have the mining resources to do that in the long run. Not to mention Japans mines while providing resources aren't known for having much, which makes the idea of them building new tech that doesn't rely on Tokyo relics not really feasible. In fact they'd have to learn the processes to mine and remake minerals for products, something they wouldn't be able to do without factories. Though I am clearly focusing on something the writers probably didn't take into account so I digress.

Demonic Gene was only brought up in relation to hinting at the Demonic Genes existance, it was never stated as fact, but even I Vs artbook implied the existance of something when the Angels genetically altered the children in the Cocoons. IVA revealed what it was.. You misunderstand.Black Flynns purpose in Demonic Gene, he is perpetuating a Time Loop, but beyond telling Walter what to do at certain points and messing with his head he isn't trying to dominate him like the actual villain of Japans failed mad science is or Walters actual Demonic Gene that activated without reading books. Black Flynn exists to propagate Chaos just like White Flynn exists to propagate Order and stop twisted Order like the Fallen Angel villain who emerges as an Angel of the Cocoon Demonizing Mikado in -Prayers-. We even seen Demonic Hope briefly before White Flynn purifies him.

I mean I'm glad you like the Law ending for IV but it's just not for me and my personal beliefs leave me biased like any human being. Long paragrahs about the Law ending and why it makes perfect sense won't change my mind.

But hey at least it's not the White. They are just the worst.

Also I should have been clear and started with this but when I said "bad civilization" I was repeating a meme from another Franchise I like. One I enjoy even if it can get really grating to me on certain things.

edited 23rd Aug '17 9:04:36 PM by OmegaRadiance

You're overthinking use of the word reverse-engineer. Technology was brought back and the implication is that this will help them leap forward technologically because they are now aware of it -as- technology, and have tons of examples to hold onto and make use of. There's nothing complicated or ambiguous about this happening in plot. Haggling about whether they will know how to make laptops by next week was irrelevant to the actual point. Which was that having these things and studying them will help push forward their technology level. The exact details of how and when this will happen aren't stated, because that's a pointless level of precision irrelevant to the plot.

Besides. Johnathan isn't the only one talking in the ending. And since the real johnathan is dead, him narrating is metaphorical to begin with. Either way, past his narration the omniscient narrator is the one who actually states that it lasts forever. "Forever" presumably only means til the world ends, but regardless. Megaten games are about ideological slants, so the endings are never / rarely implied to be "fake." They depict absolutes that atlus thinks are, well... too absolute, but they aren't secretly the opposite of what they advertise themselves as. The games actually make sure to emphasize that the endings are understood as archetypes that deliver on what they offer because its about comparing what one actually finds valuable, not trying to uncover whether someone is secretly worse than they claim, despite the narrative already depicting them as ruthless. Them being two faced doesn't mean the plan was never real, just that there is a reality of darker elements involved with it. Most likely the fact that greater good type thinking that is okay with people dying as part of setting up the system is a dark element for a being that is working to protect people to have as part of its personality. So there is the benevolent caring / cold dual dynamic of the side and figure. And comparing the ending with the failed situation when its specifically not what their plan was makes no sense. Doubly so when them not moving past masakado's back realistically exists mainly for the plot reasons of their country still being able to be compared with tokyo rather than being all over the place, and the undergound being a lot smaller proportionally.

Also, if you try to judge law endings by how yhvh acts that's a serious mistake. Since part of their presentation has always shown a disconnect between them and him. The first time he shows up in mainline in II, you kill him even on law. This isn't just a one time event, but shows the reality of the disconnect between the idealized goal versus his own. Then in nocturne, if he is the one behind it as is loosely hinted but not quite shown, he is shown to not care about a law ideological world at all. In SJ, demiurge is a demonized part of yhvh, and is seperate from the law ending, because you can release him or seal him not just on law, but any ending, and he acts like he will watch over the world regardless, and blesses your choice on neutral too. Even if you jump ahead to iva, iva explicitly shows that its yhvh never really cared about the world of law. He presides over the entire system. There are actually three groups of angels in iva. The law-world-wanting ones, the chaos ones, and the ones in yhvh's area (not the fake ones) who are "above" in a sense wanting a specific world of law, and are more about protecting yhvh. The actual goal of wanting a lawful world is separate from him. Even in devil survivor that yhvh is a bit nicer but is shown to be okay with a few different things. This has to do a bit with the different worlds of kabbalah, and marks an interesting internal distinction. I could go on about that, but the point is that it would be misleading to assume that law endings are about doing what he wants. Because from the beginning of the series there has been more to the internal workings of the relation between him and the angels and the role of the messiah and old testament / new testament division than that. Law is more about the messiah than about yhvh. And his relation to them is on and off, and has been for as long as the series has been around. In II he wanted a -kind- of law world, despite it being a different one than on the ending, but in the games since then they've moved more to making him more universal / overarching than being specific to the side.

Besides. Its not about whether other people like law or not. Moreso about clarifying what its even about. A lot of people have weird ideas about different endings. Not just law, but chaos and dagda too.

And I am saying that the time it would to do that would mean that technology would very likely stop working before they ever get to such a situation, if they ever do, because the country has never shown to be able to do much except replace broken down tech with relics. And Laptops wear down which is where they would store that info. In the grand scheme of things that technology changes nothing for the kingdom.

It still came off as dubious and not trustworthy to me, and Jonathan was the only voice we heard in that ending and some mysterious voiceless dialogue.

There's also that, fundamentally, the universe is built on conflicts betweem Law vs Chaos. Krishna himself points this out in IVA, but even Nocturne did the same with the battle between Light and Dark woth Law and Chaos as their proxies.

I actually don't mind having to chose II or even Devil Survivors Law endings because they had reps who proved themselves to be trustworthy and not deceivers. And the one thing Loki warned of being untrustworthy (Not YHVH, but his Angels) do not play much of a factor due to the Messiah running things. Though as the ending points out things will get much harder from that point on because Japan was already a very Lawful country.

edited 24th Aug '17 4:07:02 AM by OmegaRadiance

fffffuuuuuck I forgot how good this theme is

There is a new gameplay video released showcasing the new dungeon, Nadja, and showing a brief Zeus boss fight.

Do you have a link?

Posting links is a pain on my phone. Check Neos Antrax/guy who has extended smt music on his youtube account.

Zeus is a Deity, and his level is an underwhelming 64. I hope there are either multiple fights with him OR he's stronger as a playable demon like a lot of bosses are.

You're basically complaining that writing has tropes in it that are questionably plausible though. That's bad writing if you want, but it doesn't override the implications of where the plot is heading past then. The story starts in a dubious situation, and all the endings have plans to improve it based on different standards. You can't read the beginning into the end when the end deliberately shows the path moving on to a new direction. And you're making a bigger deal out of the implications than are meant to be there to begin with. Its not implying that they'll have all modern tech instantaneously. But its showing the shift to them finally moving forward in their understanding, and its related to the much larger amount of things they have access to now / the angels putting them to work. Trying to ask questions about realism and what should "really" happen is a different kind of question from what the plot is showing as the sequence of events. Also, the luxorors being too set in their ways, and the casualries being smarter than expected if anything is in tune with the ending. The luxorors were deposed after all, and the country left in direct self regulating control of what used to be the casualries once the angels are gone.

Also, mysterious voiceless dialogue of the narrator explaining what happens can't be untrustworthy. Its the narrator explaining what the outcome was. Since the main characters are dead, the only way to express the ideas is with narration or to show some minor characters or faceless ones just doing things. Its not like narration is uncommon in the games. In devil survivor every ending was narrated. Its just clarifying the scale of what happened to you again to make sure you didn't miss it. Its the -opposite- of untrustworthy. Its letting you know what happened from an omniscient narration perspective just in case you didn't trust the characters saying what was going to.

Besides. Trustworthiness is an ambiguous metric. The main untrustworthiness in the series with ending reps is mainly when they don't highlight the negative aspects of thier plan. Which is almost the opposite of law in iv, since they are upfront about that and if anything forget to tell the party about the positives. Its mainly neutral who tries handwaving the issues that would exist in a neutral world. But the endings are shown to work as advertised. If we want to talk about trustworthiness, neutral across the series is retroactively darker due to steven being the figure who is the same figure across the series, and iva shows that he is fine letting humanity get wiped out entirely just so long as its replaced with a humanity that is "sufficiently humanistic." And lucifer has been a subtle manipulator often not in his true form or announcing who he really was since forever. But that aspect of his character aside, the endings are implied to deliver what they say they will. The character of the main person who advocates them isn't meant to imply that they might not. If there's a law character to worry about trustworthiness its S Js mastema (but even then it seems like the masterminding of the ending is more about the wise men than him himself, with him being more about how to put it into practice). Merkabah is the opposite of untrustworthy. The entire "robot" theme in IV, and his personality all point heavily to being an absolute being at the center of an angelic hive mind. He exists for his goal, and himself gets nothing from the process since he plans on dying once the goal is reached.

Speaking of the wise men, I think I finally discovered who they are supposed to be. The three pure ones from taoism. But since law has an abrahamic aesthetic they use a term from abrahamic religion to refer to them. Since everything points to them not being abrahamic figures, and being some kind of high archaic gods of a higher status than normal ones. I'm hoping that seeing their actual portraits in DSJ can help confirm.

edited 24th Aug '17 11:48:59 PM by beadman

The Three Pure Ones even have the same colors as the Alignments, Red, Bluen and Yellow, or Green depending of the author.

The interesting thing is who they are really easy to interpret as Law, Neutral and Chaos, but in SJ they all are Law. Mythologically, One is mean to be the Heavenly/Universal energy, other to be a human interpreter and the other as a Spirit of the earth.

I mean the mythological three Pure Ones. Not the SJ Wise Men.

edited 25th Aug '17 1:11:11 PM by KazuyaProta

No the endijg only suggests that they might be "equal" both sides are still set to doing what they were before. Casualries still do their menial jobs and will die and pass on those duties with no changes while their superior intelligence never gets use, Monks are still the ones running the country despite Hugo and the non-human Gabby/Merkabah being the brains behind their overseeing the nation. Ingame nothing really changes beyond the purging of non-Samurai and Monk Luxurors, though ones that belong to neither still exist. The system still functionally works as it did before, but now the useless system of Kings and those relating to it is removed. Their potential is still squandered, a fact that the Kiccigiorgi Forest Casualries recognize. Even IVA doesn't change this with former Casuslries still only found in their districts and Luxurors still residing in their own. When true equality should see some Casualries now walking their streets and even getting jobs like artisans and craftsmen like the Luxurors had before. Something intentionally not included. The time descrepancy hinted in the original game suggested more than enough time.

The Angels still come across as liars and deceivers, and for that part I'm not a fan of either I Vs Law or Chaos, Lilith is the worst though since she exists solely to be a huge bitch. Gabby looks better visually in the Monks clothes but I digress.

IV Law still relies on blatant lies, manipulation, half-truths, and deceit to get their plans going, and its even reflected by how Law is mentioned to have opened the Reactor 25 years ago and thqt they promised to save those that follow them, a false hope the people clung too till they were nuked in Blasted. Even the releasing of the Nukes which they blamed on mans sinful technology was suggested to be their doing just like it was Laws Thors objective in I because references. Then Law rebuilt the "sinful" technology into killer robots that poison the world and brainwash others, malevolent use not any different than the humans they speak down against. Even in I Vs Neutral Merkabah makes blatantly false statements about how Isabeau and Flynn would have been allowed into the Kingdom as God's chosen, which is proven to be a falsehood as soon as Law wins because they've been tainted.

I've known for ages the plan in SJ was the Three Wise Men and not Mastemas, just that he was using it as an opportunity to get a promotion. I have other reasons for disliking it, including the lack of stairs as humanity is forced to listen to Lady Gaga's Greatest Hits forever.

In SJ they state that they are one with the earth, so all three are attuned with it. It's why Mem Aleph takes their betrayal so bad.

edited 25th Aug '17 9:28:25 AM by OmegaRadiance

One interesting suggestion I've heard for the true identity of the Wise Men is the Three Pure Ones, who are the Greater Scope Paragons of Taoism, above even the Jade Emperor and Xi Wangmu.

EDIT: Whoops, somebody just said that! Derp.

edited 25th Aug '17 10:14:37 AM by HamburgerTime

I still want someone in the remix to find out that a singular Wise Man has "MA" in the title, and turn one of them into a new Mother.

I think it's more likely they are the five eyed figure on the DSJ cover than being a Mother.

Yeah, I know the chances of one of them being turned into a Mother is pretty much nil. Just wanted to make a "MA" joke.

Then again, Mastema has "MA" in his name as well, as does a Marine...

Actually, they might well not be a joke at all.

Have killed all the Lil' Spicas. I have to say, though, the Triangulum Arc isn't impressing me as much as Septentione did. I feel like there's a lot more awkward exposition and not-very-funny gag scenes.

edited 25th Aug '17 6:51:22 PM by HamburgerTime

They don't have the same connotations at all. When you see hugo in the moanstery after the split, he is acting "humble" because the entire dynamic changed to one where he no longer has power. Of course he stays in the monastery because he's still a monk. But it shows that the people now self moderate the society as a whole. Even on neutral, isabeau says that there are no luxorors. She clearly didn't mean that in a in-name-only kind of way. What the connotations of the one implying its not that different are is that for someone already a casualry in the past, being ordered into a system focused on the greater good is still not focusing on self interest. Something atlus thinks is a problem. Since the people have power now, the implication is clearly not that they are going to let a random group be the only rich people arbitrarily for no reason indefinitely. Which is even more obvious when viewed in consistency with games like II.

Many of the characters are indeed manipulative. But in this context that doesn't mean untrustworthy relative to the plan identified as the lawful world. Its only untrustworthy relative to people who might not know the plan and don't understand the connotations. The whole aspect of subtle scheming is a recurring, but subtle aspect of law. Which is why in I it is introduced as the conspiracy. Even though its not shown in-game, the implications seem to be that how it functioned before things went down would have been subtle manipulations and putting people in specific places to accomplish them over extremely long stretches of time. Eirikrs blog talks about how the emperor of japan may have been meant to be one of the plants. Whether he functioned as one long term or not notwithstanding since the game doesn't go into it.

But yeah. I wouldn't deny that they are manipulative. Just that that makes them untrustworthy relative to what their actual ideology is. As -the conspiracy- subtle manipulation was always part of the process. But that is a feature, not a bug. Because what atlus is getting at is that the law to chaos scale is about guaranteed good endings on the law side, to total emphasis on self determination on chaos, but with no guarantee of anything, even surviving. Atlus obviously wants you to believe that either absolute is wrong de facto. But that aside, it explains the actions of law characters in context. Manipulation to achieve the ideal end if you can't guarantee it without it is straightforward. Axing tokyo to save far more on a longer scale is as well. As merkabah says during the isabeau fight. He still thinks of her as a victim. their point was never disparaging tokyo. The term filth is to show how cold and alien they think. That to them its a mere designation of what impeded a better outcome. This is also why they are called the law side. "law" as in whatever needs to happen to ensure the best endings is what they do, even if it overrides the self determination of some group or whatever that might otherwise cause problems.

Atlus is using this utilitarian basis for their ideology. But atlus, along with much of japan doesn't like utilitarianism, and it is very much a non-eastern philosophy. (even though they ironically say it is like a bad version of the type of group thinking that classical eastern logic used). The points they are making about the various things that a utilitarian would generally bite the bullet on doing if it led to a better end are real ones. They wouldn't actually come up that often, but the plots are structured to necessitate them doing so. But atlus puts themself in a bind. For all they want to make law look like the bad side, it being based on utilitarianism means they have to depict it as correct from that utilitarian angle, and thus actually deliver on what its ostensible plan is. Which means that asking how plausible it is that normal beings acting in that way would deliver on what they are offering is actually missing the point. Its world -is- going to be the happiest, since these beings were willing to do whatever it took to necessitate this. Their trustworthiness is in knowing their relation to this goal, and that they will work to deliver it. The ostensible negative being that people's ability to self determine the world into a less ideal one is overriden. But that is an extremely tenuous "negative."

In fact, in utilitarianism the term for a being smart enough and with good enough knowledge of outcomes that it would be correct for them to act in erratic ways that others don't understand because they can see the long term consequences of it is actually "the archangel." An ironic parallel that is probably not lost on atlus, since it depicts this in game with literal archangels. But these are modes of acting that only apply in those situations when setting up the world. Its not how people would act -in- it. And since the human consciousness is shifted to a pro social one, the world of law isn't even implied to be explicitly restrictive either, since it doesn't need to be. That people who leave it suddenly complain that there they didn't have the mental capacity to act selfishly instead of pro-socially is again, a tenuous "negative." One of the games even admits outright that a law slanted world would be a "utopia." They try to balance this with seeming negatives that in terms of the endings don't actually make as much reason to imply that there's problems with it as they are hoping. But the narratives rely on the characters it is associated with acting in these erratic surreal ways that the player isn't meant to totally be able to follow in the hopes that that makes the player see it as distasteful before even finding out what its done for. And it works, but it doesn't change the connotations of what they are trying to depict as bad without really having much in the way of a good argument that its really that bad.

Question. You guys clearly know way more about SMT lore than I do. But I remember back when I played SJ and Nocturne I asked about multiverses and stuff. I was told each game is its own thing. Lucifer in Nocturne is not the same Lucifer in SJ, for instance.

So why are multiple games being used together to prove a point? Shouldn't each universe or whatever be taken as its own thing? Wouldn't there be inconsistencies or notable differences between Law in one game/one universe vs. Law in another game/universe?

Previously unreleased Kaneko Artwork

Top 150 themes across SMT according to fan votes.

Look I said before you are not going to change my mind, so have long winded discussions between us isn't going to change it, and I don't come to Tvtropes forum to do that much. I try to hqve thwt happen as rqrely as possible.

It's probably that Utilitarianism is just not for me. Though at the same time I can appreciate what they're trying for, which for me has personally only been II.

Even the point of Utilitarianism in a universe where the System doesn't care because the many don't have value to the universe over the minority has been seen. Triangulum with Miyako, as they end it with the world consumed by Void of the bd ending to shown that a cold, uncaring universe doesn't see value in masses that have no potential. Spoiling cause Hamburge_Time's playing it.

I've seen all those before. Nice to see clear versions of them.

@Nikkolas: I don't get it either. The universes tend to be different enough that what applies to one world doesn't always apply to another. Though overlap of certain ideas exist between worlds, but which ones tend to vary. Otherwise IV or Nocturne would mention a race of sentient non-human beings that predate humanity like SJ or Raidou games had.

edited 26th Aug '17 6:46:49 AM by OmegaRadiance

25th anniversary lifestreams on September 23rd-24th.

Wednesday clear. The plot's picking up now, which is good. The final battle with the JP's agents was far harder than Spica himself was. And Miyako's the baddie. Legitimately didn't see that coming.

I didn't say you had to accept it. Like I said, its not about what ending correct, so much as that the basis is reasonable, and internally consistent. And that the concept of whether characters were trustworthy in relation to the endings is used by atlus more as a plot device to show how they tie in to them, not as an indication that the endings themselves might not work as advertised. To someone familiar with the series and endings, and who is viewing the plot in retrospect after knowing what the paths imply, the connotations are different from a seemingly sketchy individual viewed by the character (or player new to the series) viewed from the front end, and before knowing what plan they represent. The potential untrustworthiness is from before one knows their plans, not relative to the plans themselves.

—-

@ Nikkolas Multiple games can be overlayed because while each being is not the same in every universe there is some things which are meant to be consistent across many of them, or at the very least similar. In various mainline games the same religions show up, and many of the endings are meant to be similar to eachother in ideology and goal even if the setting is not the same. Even when they are obviously different (Like the endings in SJ or nocturne or desu II) they are still meant to be able to be compared with and seen as continuous with some of the normal ones.

And when talking about non-ideological aspects, the games are meant to have semi consistent rules across the multiverse in general about some things. I.E. about how demons are born and how the mind shapes them and their worlds. And similar patterns that emerge in unrelated games show things that are liekly true of reality as a whole. I.E. multiple games talking about how reality is made out of data. Doubly so since that's not just fantasy logic, but actually up to date physics knowledge. Which is part of why the cat was named schrodinger in dds. Many things are different in various games, but that's why the comparisons are made. To see what is consistent and what is not.