The Dresden Files

See, you keep pointing out the internal logic of the piece, but that's not really what I'm arguing - I'm arguing that Harry's precautions make him look like a colossal asshole, and the fact that the story occasionally bends over backwards to justify him being an asshole aren't helping.

He's justified in his actions, because of that internal logic. Because he had good reasons for acting like that. Granted yes, the others also had logical reasons for having suspicions.

Sure, and all the random bullshit in The Warrior leading to super-positive outcomes is technically internal logic, but that doesn't make it any less infuriating cross-waving bullshit.

edited 28th May '15 2:42:45 PM by math792d

I don't get you. You want the in-story characters to call him out more and for the story not to justify him, when as it stands he had good reasons for it all? Last time I checked, he didn't justify himself when Butters chewed him out despite the fact that he totally could've.

Let me try to illustrate my point:

Yeah, Butters chews Harry out in the beginning and Harry doesn't say anything, but the whole arc of Skin Game is blatantly about the act of having faith. Uriel gives up his Grace to Michael even though Michael dying would mean the death of an archangel. The Sword of Faith is broken and reforged through the story (and Murphy breaking it is one of my favorite arcs in the series.)

But it's never Harry who has to have faith in someone. Throughout the entire book, Harry knows exactly who's friend and who's foe. That whole arc of Skin Game isn't about him learning to have faith in others, it's about him predicting other peoples' behavior. Meanwhile, Butters, who has some pretty justifiable bullshit he wants to call Harry out on, is the guy who has to learn to have faith, and it isn't until his symbolic faith is restored that the Sword of Faith is reforged. And then it becomes a goddamn lightsaber because Star Wars. Woop de fucking doo.

That is what I think is irritating. The person who arguably needs to just have some fucking faith in the people who've been by his side for over a decade just kinda gets to do his own solitary thing while the guy who lacked faith in him obviously just lacked perspective.

And Uriel compounds it because it's such (in my opinion) a misunderstanding of what a character like that is supposed to be. The less Uriel directly intervenes, the better he is, because the moment you start having (and let's be frank here, it's what he is) a character who's supposed to represent the ultimate moral good of the universe, all ambiguity gets drained from the story, and he ultimately only exists to be a device for patting Harry on the back and telling him he dun good. Uriel doesn't have an agenda outside of the pretty nebulous 'let people choose for themselves' spiel he keeps giving. He's such a non-entity in a universe where everyone has a secret agenda and everyone's willing to help you as long as you fulfill it.

edited 28th May '15 3:00:21 PM by math792d

The stuff from the end of The Warrior was some of the best parts of the entire series. Plus the only one of them that really counts as him being an asshole was the blowing out the transformer, which yeah that was overkill but.. it's Harry. Even Micheal knows he's not going to change that much and so wasn't to upset with him.

And the point I'm making is, when it is internally and logically consistent, it's not anything 'bending over backwards to justify' anything, it's justified simply due to that logic.

Because Harry does have 'faith' in them. Again most of what he was 'hiding' and the stuff Butter's was pissed at, was either things he had a damn good reason for, like stealing Bob, staying on the island, keeping very very quiet about what was going on in the story. Or things he just did not even realize were possible issues. Like how badly everyone else felt when on Demonreach, or even stuff butters made up or was exaggerating, like how "The very first thing' harry did was pay back a debt, rather then just ask how things are or anything.. when Harry DID do that. Butter's just ignored it.

And when he is doing something kind of dickish, it's not out of a lack of faith in his friends, is either a damn good reason he has to, or simply him being overprotective and trying to protect them from as much as he can. Not because he doesn't think they can handle themselves or need to be coddled, but because that's just who he is, he will always try to spare his friends as much hardship as he can.

Second edit for Also, it was never said that Micheal dying would cause anything. it's possible, but among the many things they were worried about, that wasn't one of them, so seems unlikely, and more like if he died, The Grace would just pass back to Uriel. The issues were if Uriel himself died while mortal, or if Micheal used his Grace for something that would cause Uriel to Fall.

Next, regarding that entire spiel about Uriel, all I can think of is the strips from The Order Of The Stick where Roy is being judged for entry into the Lawful Good afterlife, and one quote from the Archon judging him.

People forget how crucial it is to keep trying, even if they screw it up now and then. They figure that if they can't manage it perfectly every waking second, then they should just pick some other alignment because it'll be easier. But it's the struggle that matters. It's easy for a being of pure Law and Good to live up to these ideals, but you're a mortal. What matters is that when you blow it, you get back up on the horse and try again.

It isn't that everything harry does is perfect and good, and the right thing. it's that no matter what, he keeps trying. Sure his methods might not be exactly what Uriel or the other Angels would prefer. But he's not perfect, and they don't expect him to be. What matters to Uriel, what he is reinforcing Harry is right in doing, is never giving up, always trying to do the right thing. Not that every single action he takes is right, just that his heart is in the right place, and while not perfect, he still always tries his best to do what he believes is right.

edited 28th May '15 3:13:16 PM by Seraphem

Not quite seeing what Math is seeing in the book but here's what I see is the gist of his complaint:

That the internal logic of the universe justifies Harry's actions when the external themes that are being presented is precisely the problem.

So everything makes sense in-universe, everything checks out, he just doesn't like it.

Sounds like L and the Laws, really.

But yeah, that is a legit complaint for a fictional story.

Another thing: Thanks to Kingsman The Secret Service Warden Steed now looks like Colin Firth in my head.

...*also adds Kingsmen to the list of things he would expy in DF worldbuilding*

Basic idea: A similar organization of Round Table Gentlemen exists in modern day England, but instead of being action spys like in the movie they specialize on social espionage. They are essentially Englands counter against things like Whampires and the like, who prefer to infiltrate.

In terms of DFRP terms I'd make them pure mortals but give them a Mental Toughness.

edited 29th May '15 4:17:55 AM by 3of4

Basically. Stories should be internally consistent. That's the absolute minimum expectation of any work of fiction, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with their bullshit.

In 24, interrogation always works. Thus, by the logic of the story itself, torture is a useful way of obtaining information, whereas in real life it's an inhumane and pointless gesture largely for the benefit of the torturer, not the people they work for. The logic still follows, but stepping outside the confines of the story, if Harry was a real human being, I would kick him in the balls for some of the bullshit he does to the people who're supposed to be his friends. If anything he's lucky they have the patience of fucking saints.

And you're telling me the fuckin' angels, supposedly capital g God's right hand men, are perfectly okay with multiple counts of arson, one act of mass murder, one sacrifice of an innocent woman, the death of three Faerie Queens (okay, one of those was Murphy, but the thought still counts), and multiple breaking of what are pretty firmly established as laws of the universe (raising the dead, killing mortals, at least one count of wandering about another character's mind) just because Harry did it all with the best of intentions? I mean, was his PR department really that wrong even after he had to tell them how to do shit right three times?

He really needs to hire a goddamn spokesperson.

And back to the topic of Uriel: Yeah, I get that he's supposed to be the 'gold medal for trying bro' character, but that's my whole point. He exists purely for the sake of explaining to an audience that oh no, Harry's still totally a somewhat-noble guy with good intentions, and occasionally to pop up with the kind of 'kindness begets kindness' cosmic balance bullshit that only works in fiction, even after he makes it pretty abundantly clear that God doesn't give a shit outside of making people able to make their own choices. He really needs to just make up his fucking mind.

edited 29th May '15 5:09:18 AM by math792d

They're not OKAY with it, but they're also not the judge or jury. They're the bailif. Their job is to make sure the place runs. 'Judging' is thier Boss's thing. So until he legitimately kicks the bucket, they'll act like like he has a chance of coming up 'good guy'.

Nobody's told him "yes you are an absolute paragon of goodness who can do no wrong". The worst they've told him is "you aren't a monster, and you won't be unless you choose to".

On Harry's bad rep: His arsonist tendencies, so far, didn't shows that those are causing loss of life (excluding that SNAFU on Bianca's party), which pretty much consistently shows with police's lack of pressure on him. On killing with magic: he did that in self defense while still young (and stupid). Genocide: Even White Council in general agrees that the Reds, at best, too strong to be fight openly. They basically feed on humanity without giving anything in return. They act like rabid wolves on lifestocks. On mucking with mind: Soulgazes didn't let you read/ intrude minds, just giving you what construed as True Self. On what he done after that, well, there's difference between selling Valium toward addicts/ potential addicts and giving Valium toward people with real sleeping problem. Even he admit that this is rather gray area. On killing an innocent woman: he still beats himself over it (and probably will never recover). And even then, both the sacrifice and the butcher agree that this is the only way to come out with their daughter intact. And I'm sure everyone here, when asked to choose between a bunch of jerks and your little girl, you'll choose your little girl, every time. On Necromancy: He need Sue not as weapon, but as shield against the collected Negative Energy of Darkhallows. Sue happened to be one hell of awesome is just bonus.

On Uriel's stance on Harry: It's not so much God's stand than Uriel's stand, which basically subcontracting some of his works on Harry. And even then, Uriel is basically Heaven's Dirty Business guy. He drowns Mesopotamia on Noah's time. He turned Sodom upside down. He took all the Egyptian firstborn and sending them to Abraham's bosom. He did nasty things so that Free Will can goes on. It's possible that he keeps Harry's soul and coinscience clear as, well, "worker's benefit". Angels aren't supposed to be Nice Guy 100% of the time, they are God's instruments, they can and should be ruthless when situation calls for it.

While I do not agree with everything math792d says I think math792d does have a point. Harry, especially in the earlier books, can be a narrow-minded, smug, judgmental, unforgiving, selfish, a-hole. Maybe it is because of his youth. I get the feeling he is still kind of starting out and in his late twenties at best. But he sees things in black and white where if he agrees with his morality it is white and if not it is black. If someone violates Harry's moral code he could be very unforgiving. He is a smart-ass to people often needlessly when sometimes made situations worse. He sometimes acted on what he wanted regardless of the possible consequences. The most glaring example is the incident that started the war with the Red Court. Dresden was warned of the consequences, came to the party as a representative of the White Council, and Susan went to the party with full knowledge of what the vampires were. Yet he started the war regardless of the possible consequences because the Reds pisst him off and threatened someone he cared about.

We sympathize with Dresden because Jim Butcher is that good of a writer and is able to balance these qualities out. I have read and watched characters with the same flaws become so obnoixous I cannot stand them. And Harry has gotten better over the years as he took on an apprentice and learned not everything is as simple has he initially believed. Still, looking at it from other characters point of view it is easy to see Dresden as a massive, selfish a-hole who does some good, but also makes things worse.

I'd say that Harry's biggest flaw is that he thinks he knows better than everyone else. Not in the sense that he thinks he's more powerful or more knowledgeable than everyone else, but in that he thinks he has better judgement than everyone else. He doesn't trust anyone else to make decisions (to the point of withholding information from people in order to lead them to make the decisions he wants them to), and he judges people who make different decisions than he would have very harshly. He's (slowly and painfully) growing out of this, however, as people a) call him out on his bullshit and b) demonstrate that they're capable of handling themselves during his absences (like, you know, when he was dead for a while).

Personally, I like how Harry's morality has grown from from the Black And White of the first books to the more Shades Of Grey we have now (with very distinctly lighter and darker shades, though).

I especially liked how Harry, after several book of automatically antagonizing the Wardens (which was understandable, knowing his history) becomes one and gradually understand how things aren't simple as they appeared from the outside.

(And of course Harry's morality changing sort of changes the morality of the whole narration... I don't know if that was planned or if Butcher sort of retchanged the morality of the setting as the series went on to make it more interesting)

edited 15th Jun '15 12:19:15 AM by Cozzer

Anyway, new issue of Down Town came out this week.

And this time, MARCONE WAS IN CHARACTER.

It's◊ unbelievable.◊

I haven't read any of the comics. What had Marcone done in previous issues that was out of character?

How about trying to riddle Harry and Molly with bullets because they were doing his work for him?◊

edited 17th Jun '15 11:13:47 AM by math792d

The original story DF Comics kinda have a Star Trek Movie Curse going on.

Digging the looks.

In the event of a TV adaption, I officially vote Elizabeth Mitchell as Mab.

Has the dignity, missing the ageless.

I vote for Uncanny Valley CGI for the fey.

It'll be difficult, I think, to find a younger actress with enough gravitas.

... Uma Thurman?

Worse come to worse, we can just ask Dame Helen Mirren and use CGI to manipulate her age. It works for Curious Case Of Benjamin Button.