Bakemonogatari

If I was in Hanekawa's position, I think I'd have choked Ougi

Is it just me, or does Ougi look almost normal when she's reflected in Araragi's eyes?

I was wondering about that "stopped eating" line from the previous episode.

So. That line about Ougi searching for 'a lost child', and the thinly veiled threat that came shortly after it. The implication's pretty clear there, isn't it?

The weird thing is, even if Ougi destroyed his relationship with Nadeko by turning her into the Snake God (and therefore made Araragi nearly cross over the line to becoming a vampire), she saved Shinobu and possibly saved him in general—Gaen wanted to turn Shinobu into the Snake God instead, and who knows what that would have done to them. If you gave Araragi a truth serum and told him to pick one, he'd pick Shinobu... And it gave Nadeko a chance to grow beyond the person she was pretending to be but wouldn't have done much for the ancient vampire's development.

That's a pattern, in general. She instigates situations to make people face things they're not acknowledging... Which is actually more a Trickster Mentor thing than anything malicious. It'd be interesting to have the creepy apparition-person with every Obviously Evil signifier in the book actually be basically good.

Her results are arguably good, especially if you don't trust Gaen, but she's obviously pretty sadistic and there's no indication that she's actually trying to help.

Why're you bringing up Nadeko now though?

edited 8th Nov '15 3:11:28 PM by Arha

I trust Gaen. She makes it perfectly clear how little she thinks of everyone else, and probably has the best interests of the town at heart. And, quite frankly, Araragi needs to get rid of Shinobu someday anyway, since his bond with her is his "oddity".

No he doesn't. What he needs is to get over his self loathing. His bond with Shinobu is fine.

His bond with Shinobu directly represents his unwillingness to let anyone else suffer, and therefore his willingness to constantly sacrifice himself. Oshino said way back in the beginning that all he needed to do to become human was let her go. This was reinforced recently in Tsukimonogatari, when he had that conversation with Yotsugi about him not being willing to go with any plan that risked anyone else. They're not unrelated: his bond with Shinobu is simply a manifestation of both of them sacrificing themselves for each other. It's not healthy, mentally.

I mean, Shinobu doesn't need to die necessarily, but I'd be incredibly surprised if the climax of Araragi's arc didn't involve him cutting her out of his shadow.

(1681) Ougi said she was looking for a "lost child" at the end and this happened about a week before Nadeko Medusa. Her challenge there seems to be a reference to that.

(1682) I think Gaen is a good specialist. I think Kagenui shows how this is not the same as a being a good person. There's a pretty wide set of scenarios where "best for the many" doesn't work out well for Araragi and co.

Yep, Shinobu is his willingness to self-sacrifice, just as Heart-Under-Blade was his suicidal impulse. (And appropriately enough, both are shadows of the other.) I do agree that they're probably best off separating somehow, but forcible removal is probably not in anyone's best interest.

Lost child probably refers to Hachikuji.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at, anyway. Especially since she ends up getting found by something with an implied connection to Ougi.

Yeah, I thought that too at first, but (no spoilers, beyond when the next story happens) looking at the timeline◊, this is about two months after Mayoi Jiangshi and Shinobu Time, both of which are before Tsubasa Tiger, and she's obviously got the crazy hair underneath the dye.

Hachikuji's been gone a while, so it can't be her. Therefore, since this is about a week before Nadeko Medusa, that's probably what Ougi's referring to.

(The show really needs to ground things in time better, this achronology makes everything really confusing)

/squints

That can't be right- Ougi shows up and talks to Araragi about traffic lights at the beginning of Mayoi Jiangshi, but Araragi meets her for the first time in Ougi Formula. And I'm pretty sure she showed up at end of Shinobu Time as well.

Wasn't that a flash forward of sorts, because Araragi was recounting the events of that arc to Ougi in the present day?

Regardless of the timeline, Ougi doesn't know that Hachikuji is missing yet. Araragi briefly conceals that from everyone and then tells only her to see what she does with that information. She was looking for Hachikuji in Nadeko Medusa as well.

edited 8th Nov '15 8:29:57 PM by Arha

/investigates

...

Yeah, it was, but the anime didn't include any of the narration that made that clear.

However, it's also worth noting that at the beginning of Nadeko Medusa, Ougi says she's looking for Hachikuji. And in a way that implies there's some weird time/foreknowledge stuff going on with Ougi- she had to be reminded that she hadn't met Nadeko yet.

Edit: Partially ninja'd.

edited 8th Nov '15 8:32:30 PM by Gilphon

Oh, right. Thanks for the reminders on the details with Hachikuji there, it's been a while.

No, Araragi says he's reminded of Mayoi, and the scenes that follow (clearly taken from the latter part of the arc) as well as what he says makes it clear that he's just recounting past events.

I think the furthest Ougi has gotten was to get her to say, "let's take this outside" in one of the commentaries. Ougi wants to shatter her composure real badly for someone she hardly knows. Fufufu.

Maybe he should have accepted Shinobu being the goddess, but that is more his selfish desire to have her with him than his martyr complex at this point. Shinobu Mail iirc should readdress their codependency on each other.

As for the relationship being healthy, we saw in Hitagi End that his relationship with Hitagi isn't healthy either if we are completely honest. She doesn't argue him going to Nadeko day after day and getting killed over and over, because she subconsciously agrees with him and wouldn't want to lose him by rocking the boat. And he doesn't care enough to say 'time out, I need to rethink this and not throw myself into the middle schooler blender for the next two months'. Their relationship needs work as well. Unfortunately, Nisio is likely to sweep that under the carpet even if Kaiki started to make Hitagi aware of her insecurities.

Further, with Ougi, to chime in on that, she pretty much ticks what we always see, that is Araragi subconsciously calling for balance despite how it affects people, to strike that karmic median in a resolution. It's probably why she is discontent that he didn't receive retribution from Sodachi for telling her the truth in kind, because I think to her it was his role to. That isn't necessarily malicious, but it's hardly helpful. It's rushing change that doesn't necessarily need to be rushed.

Ougi may have been a catalyst for Nadeko to realize her true self, but Araragi had already grasped some parts about Nadeko's true self when they met prior to Mayoi Jiangshi(how she handled her summer homework and how she responded to her teachers when she says she can evade their wrath by evading the situation), he only needed to stop coddling her and start reprimanding her about her actions. The whole snake god fiasco was unnecessary. There was a much better candidate right in front of them. Gaen was wrong to be so hands off and irresponsibly let Araragi hold the talisman after he refused to allow her to become a god. Neither Gaen or Ougi's methods are entirely correct or without possibly grave consequences for the town as well as the gang.

That, and we already have the message smashed into our heads about being wrong while being functionally correct several times.

edited 9th Nov '15 4:58:02 AM by AOG

Ougi's just sour that she didn't choose a form to compete with Hanekawa's...tracts of land. (She should've just gone for the Hachikuji option, Araragi wouldn't be able to keep his hands off her.)

But yeah, wow, she pulled no punches there, starting from the moment she physically shoved herself between them. (I notice her shadow was substantially larger than Araragi and Hanekawa's when she approached them at the start.)

What kind of lousy hair dye washes off with just a splash of water anyway?

(I'm now wondering if Hanekawa was spurred to go on her month-long trip precisely as a response to Ougi's appearance, or whether it legitimately was something she'd already had in mind to prepare for her plans after graduation.)

x2

Hell I wouldn't call his relationship with Shinobu unhealthy either. Yes it represents his willingness to sacrifice himself but there's nothing inherently wrong with sacrificing oneself. It only becomes wrong when you assume it's the only option without considering other ones and even then that only applies to major sacrifices as there are big ones and smaller ones.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't say they're making a big sacrifice by staying together. Yes neither of them can be completely human/vampire while the other is around but they're both fine with that and sacrificing the other to regain their humanity/vampirism would be selfish of either of them to do. Isn't that more unhealthy than them staying together?

The ending of Kizu was explicitly a result no one was happy with. Like, that was the point. Shinobu didn't talk to him for like a month because of how pissed off she was at how he resolved it.

Plus, he didn't even like her or anything and she didn't want to be saved. What was the point in saving her? Who actually benefited from it?

x2

Isn't Kizu the earliest on the timeline though? It may not have been a healthy relationship at the time but things can change. I seem to recall it being mentioned at some point that Shinobu could kill Araragi at any time and regain her status as a vampire/that Araragi could give her up and return to being completely human but they've made it clear that they're content with living out the rest of their existence together. How exactly is that a bad thing?

They've both benefited from it because they've come to care about each other.

edited 9th Nov '15 3:57:43 PM by Chariot