Raildex verse (A Certain Magical Index, A Certain Scientific Railgun, A Certain Scientific Accelerator)

Not quite. Remember, magic was invented way back when the only supernatural power around was the Gemstone espers, who are stupidly rare but also quite powerful (especially in Stone Age societies). Magic was invented to give normal people power on the same level as the Gemstones. Then a few decades before the start of Index (exact timeline is not specified), the alchemist Aleister Crowley created Academy City and a way to artificially create Gemstones through science. He was declared a heretic by pretty much everyone, and the whole Magic Versus Science thing started.

Modern espers really are just magicians with a very narrow powerset. So it's hard to say which side has stronger individuals on average, especially since magicians often fall into Crippling Overspecialization (even though they could choose to generalize more). Magic does seem easier to learn for everyone who hasn't participated in the Power Development Program, and has fewer limits as well.

Supposedly something like >60% of Espers are level 0s, so the question of who is more powerful on average isn't really in question. Especially since even "basic" Magician abilities, like people-clearing fields, curses, healing magic, etc, would be squarely level 3-4 abilities individually. Then when you throw in their specialized spells, they're pretty strong. People laugh at Stiyl, but it'd be extremely difficult for the vast majority of Espers to take him on.

The Magic Side also has alot more "Holy shit OP pls nerf" characters than the Science Side. Even Accelerator, the only character besides Kakine really keeping Espers in the game power level-wise, only got his wings by comprehending Magic.

edited 14th Dec '15 8:30:11 PM by RedAcer

Oh yeah, I'm fully aware that what we're shown in the story does not at all support the idea that espers are stronger. It's why I find the whole "talent" way of phrasing it to be rather odd.

That brings us back to the "highly specialized magicians" thing. Since espers are a subset of magicians, they're inherently more limited, and are pretty much always going to be weaker. Accelerator is essentially evolving past being any esper into being a magician. Sure, a magician with a limited powerset, but better than normal espers, who are basically magicians with only one spell.

I guess if they refine the Power Development Program, eventually anyone will be able to be a level 5, but we've seen no hint that that's actually possible outside of Academy City propaganda. I don't think Aleister really cares about any of that; he just needs one esper to reach level 6, and having all the Skill-Outs running around make for a ready set of mercenaries/test subjects whenever the need arises.

EDIT: Actually... wait a second. Espers never use outside sources of power. Sure, sometimes Mikoto grabs existing electricity instead of making it herself, but she never uses an outside power source to increase her own, personal power. Meanwhile nearly all magicians use theurgy, the summoning of spirits and requesting/binding their aid. So maybe the average esper is stronger individually than a magician, but magicians never use their own power anyway, so it doesn't matter. It's like a guy who weighs five hundred pounds and can tear people apart with his bare hands facing a scrawny little kid who just calls the police.

edited 14th Dec '15 8:56:37 PM by Discar

I don't buy at all the "becoming a magician" thing.

Magicians and Espers are explicitly said to be two sides of the same coin. It's not at all like "magician" is a superset of "esper."

I'm pretty sure most magicians just use their own mana. The really awesome ones use Telesma.

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No.

More seriously, though, it seems more to me that Magicians and Espers are in some sense similar to convergent evolution - where two different species fit into the same niche but came from entirely different directions.

Whereas powerful enough Magicians end up turning into Magic Gods, it seems perfectly plausible for a strong enough Esper to get the same result but in a way that fits in better with Espers.

I'd imagine an Esper reaching the same level of power as a Magic God would be something like their AIM field warping reality at will, and possibly unconsciously, to whatever the Esper wanted/needed. Think like how Kazakiri can manipulate the Imaginary Number District, except an Esper doing it, it happening in the real world at the scale that Magic Gods are supposedly able to affect the universe at.

One of these days, Takitsubo is going to re-write the universe, isn't she.

Espers and magicians are using two different sources to reach the same basic endpoint. It's not clear if level six is angel or magic god equivalent, but the distinction is probably meaningless anyway.

Not sure what your problem is with that description. That's how it works. If a magician needs to be shown to be threatening, they use Telesma. Birdway is a perfect example of this. Sure, using Telesma is supposed to be more meaningful, but in the actual series it really isn't.

But Birdway isn't that impressive. Why are you using her as an example?

My problem with that example was because I just don't like Birdway. Not actually stating an opinion on her ability, just joking around about how I don't like the character. I know there's two senses in which the word "awesome" can be used, but I wasn't passing that chance up.

Not sure how she isn't impressive. She could overpower IB while holding back, can supposedly gain the powers of a Saint using a tarot card, constructed an imitation Gungnir using Index's knowledge, and is pretty consistently talked about by other characters as being 'a big deal'. She's a big fish even if it is stupid a 12 year old is.

Not really the point though. Anything that wants Kamachi's seal of being strong on the Magic Side gets Telesma thrown in on top.

edited 14th Dec '15 9:38:46 PM by RedAcer

Because it's explicitly stated that she would lose to Kanzaki in a direct fight and Kanzaki hasn't been great for dozens of novels. If you want to be generous, England. If you want to be accurate, she's never been more than hype. If she's a big deal it's because she's improbably smart and taken improbably seriously by an improbably large number of people because improbable improbable I don't like her either.

I think you're forgetting that Kamachi isn't exactly the best writer. There's a lot of Informed Ability going on with it in regards to Birdway herself, but telesma use is definitely supposed to represent a character being impressive.

Which is all that's being claimed here.

edited 15th Dec '15 8:14:27 AM by clockworkBabbage

There are still better examples to use than Birdway, who is really not that impressive. I mean, even if you take the Kanzaki hype at face value, she's still only about middle tier for the series, well below the likes of Acqua or Fiamma.

So, Baka Tsuki just got nuked hard with a takedown notice from Kadokawa. Index was one of the series hit, though for some reason they only demanded for the Kanzaki and Necessarius side stories to be taken down. Maybe because they're planning to publish them in English soon?

Other series hit are DAL, Itsuten, Haganai, DYD, LH, Mondaiji. Nobuna, Arisu, Nareru SE, Kuusen, Sakurasou, Shana, Slayers, Chaika, Ero-manga, Spice & Wolf, Baccano, Black Bullet, Accel World, Oreimo and Papakiki

I thought Baka Tsuki got hit a while ago. I remember them warning that they were taking down all the Index stuff that was coming out in English.

That was years ago. I assume this is supposed to be a new incident.

They never actually got a takedown notice for that I think. They took down the Old Testament novels after the series got licensed under the assumption it was coming (and probably to try and stave off them taking down New Testament).

...How did Touma escape Biribiri at the start of the series following that big-ass kill-sat-style lightning bolt (which basically blacked out a large portion of Academy City or at least just the entire District 7)?

I mean, one moment the lightning comes down, next moment it's the next day.

Presumably he blocked it and then just ran away. Which is how every match with them went.

If he keeps running and blocking, eventually Misaka has to give up and go get some sleep.

x7 Now I see why there isn't any updates on those Light Novels, especially To Aru and Accel World.

Here's one of those frustrating, typically inconclusive debates on whether Imagine Breaker could affect something.

If Touma were to punch a Hollow, a sort of otherworldly demon that can only be seen by the spiritually aware, from Bleach, would Imagine Breaker be able to affect it, or would Touma just break his hand?

It wouldn't be able to affect say, Shinichi Izumi from Parasyte - while Parasytes aren't natural by our standards, they're not magic or esper-based. But would he be able to affect, say, the Shikon Jewel from Inuyasha, or anything conjured by Shiro Emiya, from fate/stay night.

Since Hollows are "natural" in the Bleachverse, part of the cycle of life and death, Imagine Breaker wouldn't be able to affect them I'd say. But oppositely, Bleach explains their appearance and several other things as part of the supernatural, it's the show's primary theme. Spirits and spiritual energy and Hollows are definitively unnatural. Imagine Breaker would affect them.

For Fate, he can probably break Shirou's Projections. Shirou is still pretty buff so it's not like he's gonna lose a fistfight.

For someone like Shiki Tohno, Touma is dead. He can't win against someone like that.