World Of Warcraft

The thing about holy and other divine magic in the Warcraft universe is that it normally comes about through willpower and belief, and is not typically gifted from one being to another. This has been present since the early novellas (Tirion and Eitrigg, no less), so it's one thing that is canonically set in stone.

Thus Elune could be anything, from a naaru to another name for N'Zoth to a young troll that discovered a strange glowing lake one day. Or an actual god, as Metzen said. Just keep in mind Metzen has said things that later turned out to be Jossed.

edited 19th Oct '12 4:10:21 PM by TotemicHero

The "Velen would know" remark and the Cataclysm beta having the naaru E'lune was enough proof. They haven't officially said it, but I'm certain that's the working plan unless something changes.

If that is the case, there's the chance at least part of the night elf population will see it as a draenei trick, given that some of them already know of Velen's attempted speech. Imagine the reaction to that.

Of course, given that this expansion is setting up all kinds of internal factional rifts, they may be about to pull just that.

If that's the case, the Night Elves have been doing extremely well for a race that hasn't been in contact with their true goddess for quite a while. Maybe they created a better one long ago.

Them Laser Owlbears must be juicing on something good.

edited 19th Oct '12 6:00:34 PM by Recon5

The thing about Varian is that, unlike Garrosh, his Character Development was believable.

I preferred the direction Cataclysm was taking Garrosh's character than derailing him into this.

Not from where I'm standing

Derailment? I mean I'm not of any other place this could have gone, Garrosh has always been a mad war hunger psychopath out to prove his own masculinity above all else. What Cata tried to was turn up the rose-colored glasses to such a degree that that became a good thing, and justfy making him into Warchief. You want Character Derailment? Try Thrall's massive sudden grip on the Idiot Ball that made him think abandoning all his responsibilities and obligations to his people and leaving Garrosh in charge was a good idea.

edited 19th Oct '12 7:24:58 PM by LMage

That only started in Wrath, he didn't really have those traits in BC. And given the history of his race experimenting with the Sha is just about the biggest wallbanger he can pull off.

And yes, I agree that they way they handled Thrall stepping down was totally stupid. Blizz should have had Garrosh develop better, or put that other Shaman guy in charge.

edited 19th Oct '12 7:28:15 PM by Saiga

Varion's CD was believable. The issues was it was ALL done in the tie in novels none of it in the game itself

Though he's still a massive jerk-wad that needs to shut the fuck up, he's at least no where near as bad as Garroah anymore. In Wrath he was just as stupid, moronic and just plain suicidally idiotic it was ridiculous "Oh you want to ask the Horde to help deal with the pending escape of an ancient chaos god that's so powerful the being that made the world couldn't destroy it and is one of 5 being responsible for 90% of the evil shit that has ever happened on the planet. Well Fuck You i'd rather let it get free and kill us all then work with the Horde."

Garrosh's derailment was real but as said it was derailed between BC and Wrath, there is ZERO similarities between the mopy emo from BC and the hotheaded small minded testosterone factory we see in Wrath.

Honestly, I thought the Garrosh of BC was already ridiculously one-note. He's never been believable or relatable. And I though Thrall leaving his post was an acknowledgement that he's quite unhordish in his thinking.

The root problem here is that they are trying to keep the conflict up without 40k-style grimdark futility, or some sort of ideological difference. It's just racist imperialists against bloodthirsty conquerors, but with both sides going for some sympathy. The good characters are those not used to be villains or involved in the war.

That's part of the reason what they did to Jaina REALLY pissed me off. She was a nice, middle ground , willing to work with the Horde and strong in her belief that they where no worse or better then humans, just a different culture and race. She stood up for reason and peace and working together against their real enemies: The Legion and The Scourge.

Seeing all that erased for the sake of perpetuating this mindless conflict....It just pisses me off so much.

I'm not sure if you're the same person who's been saying these things in the past, but it strikes me that all the things you like about Jaina are the things which get Thrall called a Mary Sue and hated. Honestly, they're practically the same character.

In their intentions perhaps, but very different circumstances. Thrall led his people to freedom and made the entire Horde, Jaina had one city she set up as a refuge from the war. Thrall was Metzen's envoy to make the Horde into what he wanted it to be, so he gets some hate as a creator's protégé. Jaina achieved enough to be admirable but not so much that she seems to be favorited by the writers.

On the matter of what is happening to Jaina, I don't like the Horde's new brutality but her reaction to it seems entirely natural. I think it's trying to counter the idea that she is too willing to forgive the Horde for what they have done in the past. Though it may also be a drive to remove neutral figures willing to negotiate between the two, which is indeed a problem.

Deathstalker Commander Belmont only, you know, helped throughout all of Northrend. Specifically the two starting areas. Hah.

As for Garrosh, that was just the writers messing up on his character, imo. But this is too far. Vol'Jin better get to have his promise kept and be the one to finish Garrosh.

See I've liked the nice contrast between Thrall and Jaina since Warcraft III, two radically different people with radically different upbringings but the same fundamental world view and idealism, one born of adversity and the other education. The best was that for a while, a long while even, they where able to make it work, tensions between Alliance and Horde where going down, bipartisanship (for lack of a better term) went up, but now it feels like Blizzard is reversing it all for the sake of spicing thing up, rather then genuine character development and story progression. It just doesn't feel like this was the way things where supposed to go.

In any fandom, there are some people who demand the status quo be maintained, and others who insist on the characters moving in the direction they want them to go. Blizzard has an objective for Thrall, Jaina, Varian, Garrosh, etc. That said objective is not what some members of the fanbase wish to see is immaterial. This whole debate smacks of judging the quality of a story line on the basis of whether it fits into your desired narrative for the characters.

TBH, I've been wondering when Jaina would snap for ages.

You don't have to break and 180 a central character to shake up the status quo though.

And, really it's not so much Jaina's new direction that bothers me, but that it comes right on the heels of Thrall's abrupt decision to dump the Horde and leave Garrosh in charge, and other such events. It just feel like Blizzard is bending the characters and story just to keep the Horde/Alliance war going, which I wouldn't mind if that when you look at as a whole it feel so horrendously un-organic.

I was hoping she wouldn't since in this setting that means we murder her and steal her shoes later.

But sadly, Jaina's life sucks, I don't like her Character Derailment but what else happens when your existence is one of never-ending loss? I would have rather seen her disappear in depression than go "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" but almost nothing good has ever happened to this woman.

But Warcraft is at its core a war between humans and orcs. I think the most important thing is, with all that's happened, is this officially the Fourth War?

edited 22nd Oct '12 8:09:00 AM by Rotpar

@L Mage: The point is that you should expect Blizzard to do whatever it takes to keep the war between Alliance and Horde going. If this means derailing characters, it will happen.

@Fighteer

It doesn't mean I have to like it. *sigh*

Jaina already was killed and looted! Along with Baine, Sylvanas and Tyrande. That is hard evidence in favor of them not being bosses in the future!

And all this character derailing started with Kael'thas.

edited 22nd Oct '12 8:21:12 AM by googlebot

To be fair. You cant really blame Jaina. She's bent over backwards to keep peace between the Horde and Alliance, and how does Garrosh repay her? By murdering hundred if not thousands of completely innocent men, women, and children in an instant .

I'd say she has license to be angry.

edited 22nd Oct '12 8:24:32 AM by Midgetsnowman

Yeah, Garrosh is the evil one here. Jaina is reacting as many people would to having everything you've worked to build come to naught.

Not just that..I mean, this wasnt just an act of war. It was downright malicious and cruel. The mana bomb doesnt just kill people. it burns their souls apart utterly. And he used it on CHILDREN.

Theres a reason even the Horde is turning on garrosh. Its because Garrosh is so convinced of his utter superiority to other life forms he no longer sees anything wrong with wholesale slaughter of innocent lives.

If anything, Jaina strikes me as a person now utterly saddled with huge quantities of grief. And grief tends to provoke a want for vengeance.

edited 22nd Oct '12 8:27:51 AM by Midgetsnowman

Yeah, TBC was a disaster for the lore. Kael goes completely demon-worshipping insane. A gang of assholes stab and burn him a bunch of times, so he falls over, plays dead, and lets them steal his wallet and his pants, then laughs at them when they head back to town. Wow.