Persona series

Persona fans went crazy on that… even bugging his new VA over it. Which he said that was what the director wanted.

But with arena I would have preferred the original design concept with Akihiko, MIB serious with a suit tie with glasses instead of ‘wild man’.

The original Persona 3 is one of the few times where I think the localized version of a character was so well received that the later, more faithful translations, were almost universally rejected by western fans.

And I'm not gonna lie, I think whoever was doing the translation in the mid 2000's was right. Protein Junkie Aki is kind of a lame character. Even though his character didn't shine the brightest while I was playing FES, I did like him and his role in the story.

This is a fair point, which is why I think that it's important for there to be actual queer representation in P4 if Kanji isn't it. As long as there's something in the game to reinforce the fact that Kanji's Shadow is just a bad stereotype, I think it works. But you definitely do need that counterexample.

Ultimately, this is the problem with how they handled Kanji in a nutshell. There's so much bullshit in his storyline that it's impossible to unpack without landing on something messed up. Either he is attracted to men and you're playing into the "only girls and homos do crafts" thing, or he's not attracted to men and there's nothing act as a counterpoint to his uncomfortably stereotypical Shadow.

That's why I think the best solution is to keep Kanji's story mostly as-is and shift the "but his Shadow was still a messed up depiction of homosexuality" part to someone else's storyline.

No, I think "real or perceived" is exactly the point there. Kanji isn't gay but he's afraid of being open about his interests because he doesn't want to be seen as gay. P4 doesn't touch on this at all, but it's a great illustration of why homophobia is fucked up and harmful even to straight people. That nuance gets lost if Kanji is, in fact, actually attracted to men.

Edited by NativeJovian on Apr 4th 2024 at 8:37:07 AM

In fairness, Akihiko is much less of the protein-addled himbo he would become in the Arena games in P3. Reload actually doesn't really bring up that aspect of his character in his Linked Episodes either, focusing more on learning what he wants to do with his life beyond fighting Shadows.

Not really no. that's a false binary. it is entirely possible to handle kanji's story, messy as it is, and not end up on something messed up. it just requires actually tackling the content it brings up for shock value (ie the queerness) as the legitimate focus, and not just a surface bit (again, for shock value) before it does a Shocking Swerve into being about his insecurity about his knitting hobby.

Hell, its not even necessarily about his hobby in knitting. Kanji is the son of a family of textile workers. I doubt its that shocking to anyone that he has a skill or interest in textile work. the specific thing that tends to center the hang up is that the things he likes knitting are all very explicitly "cute things".

and kanji liking cute things, and kanji being queer are not some diametrically opposed things where he has to be one or the other. because at the heart they are the same thing, Kanji being held up at an expectation of what it means to be a man that he does not fit, and the anguish that causes him. and such expectations are bullshit, and kanji should be allowed to break as many as he wants. otherwise kanji just becomes another instance of Real Men Wear Pink where he is allowed his 1 (and only 1) non-masculine trait.

and to explain how they could do it materially in story is easy, just have it clear he is attracted to men in a non joking fashion (make him romancable maybe idk. I'm sure some people would like that), and drop all instances post his dungeon where his ostensible friend group needlessly needle him about his sexuality or make comment about how weird kanji is for his interest in cute things. (or idk maybe use those instances to give yosuke an arc about getting over himself and that shit instead of just presenting them as haha queer/gender non-conforming men are weird)

Like, idk have the girls of the scooby gang actually warm up to kanji and show people in his life affirming his interests and identity instead of constantly belittling it in the narrative like P4 does post his dungeon. that would go a long way to making kanji's story less of a mess.

Also, I need it to be said outloud how fuck up this notion is. like, having the entire playable cast be straight (which outside of headcanons almost every persona game has been) doesn't somehow make their stories about straightness, but having the playable cast all queer does somehow? like, all their arcs wouldn't be about queerness, yukiko can have a girlfriend and still have her story be about waffling about taking the family business. Yosuke can still have his narrative about being a city boy connecting with rural life while being so deep in the fucking closet he's in narnia. hell Rise and Teddie are both right there with their story lines, and neither of them have any substantial queer subtext to them.

also "broader range of identities than just different kinds of queer"? are you fucking kidding me? queerness is a broad range of identities. like, if if the playable cast was just 8 different white cis gay guys then yeah maybe they should think of maybe adding some variety to that, but P4, under the most common queer lens, is a fairly diverse group of mostly (but not all) queer kids, especially for the time period.

and sadly given how garbage mainstream media has continued to be since p4, a P4 remake that actually leaned into its queer reading and was explicitly queer in text, while still being a big budget jrpg would still be revolutionary.

I will say that Kanji's issue is a very early 2000s problem here in the west and a very Japanese problem even now. Kanji is a textbook example of a 'metrosexual' before the word even existed in English, I don't think an equivalent even exists in Japan even now.

Hell... even now the word isn't even in chrome or firefox spell check.

NGL I always thought metrosexual referred to the aggressively het kind of urban guys who care a lot about grooming themselves, fashion, and aesthetics.

Then again I haven't heard anyone use the term metrosexual in a while, so I could just be wrong. Like way wrong.

Edited by Nofix on Apr 5th 2024 at 2:17:00 AM

A CIS guy 'who likes shopping, fashion, and similar interests traditionally associated with women or gay men.'

Which is Kanji in a nutshell.

Edited by Memers on Apr 5th 2024 at 2:53:58 AM

I actually like that Kanji's sexuality is ambiguous because it's none of his friends' business unless he decides to tell them and what he has said is 'I'm not gay, leave me alone.' Is it true? I don't know, but if I was actually the MC of the game I would agree that yeah, it's none of my business, so I'll just take him at his word. Though I can't self insert into the P4 protagonist in the slightest because he has both no implied personality and no dialogue options that even let you express much real personality either.

If P4 got a remake I would want um... Marie to be more involved in the plot. I don't particularly like or dislike her but I think she should probably be more prominent. I'd also want Hollow Forest to be completely remade and difficulty options keeping up with QOL changes, preferably the way Golden had it where it was actually a set of options you could control.

On the less realistic side of things, I would also like them to rewrite the social links. A lot of them suck ass or have endings that contradict the supposed themes of the game.

Far less realistic than that even, I would like some level of genuine interpersonal conflict between the party members. They get along too well and I hate it. Even as much as Ryuji and Morgana fighting annoys me I do appreciate that they just don't like each other. But there's no room for that anymore.

Edited by Arha on Apr 5th 2024 at 5:31:09 AM

uh, no, you're missing a pretty key part of the definition being an urban man who does those things

kanji is in no way a metrosexual, given that he only has a couple feminine interests, isnt meticulous about his appearance, and lives in the countryside. and quite frankly the term has been largely co-opted by conservative and toxic masculinity groups to describe any man who practices the bare minimum of self care.

like. we're getting back to the root of the issue in assuming that gay (and/or trans) men are inherently meticulous about style and appearance, and that its a twist when a gay man isn't like that or a straight man is. and it's just not true, and it's harmful.

some straight men are metrosexuals. most gay men aren't. some trans men are. some trans men aren't. it has nothing to do with sexuality, despite its moniker

Edited by EpicBleye on Apr 5th 2024 at 6:36:38 AM

Oh yeah, going back to what people want in a P4 Remake: Make the dungeons actual dungeons.

I can see the thorough-line from Persona 3 (where all of the non-boss floors were randomized nonsense without any block of Tartarus being...like anything in particular) to Persona 4 (where every dungeon has a theme, but is still largely randomized with a few puzzles/gimmicks) to Persona 5 (the Palaces are proper dungeons with Mementos being the requisite randomly generated area).

You have the themes for each area, just make some puzzles and maybe some new mini-bosses based around that.

Oh, definitely. With Reload out P4's dungeon crawling/combat honestly feels like the part of the game that aged the worst (and yes, I'm also counting the problematic dialogue the game has about sexuality).

P4 dungeon crawling honestly had issues in general even when it first came out. They honestly felt too short most of all.

Making the dungeons in P5 style + some randomized dungeons would be pretty awesome.

Edited by Memers on Apr 5th 2024 at 5:08:49 AM

I mean, in theory? Sure, you could absolutely tell that story and do it well. In practice, given the limitations of the format and the fact that Kanji has to share time with half a dozen other main characters? I don't think it's likely to work.

But that's an agree-to-disagree thing.

I mean, yeah, it kinda does. If you're telling a story about a group of people and everyone in it is straight, you're telling a straight story. If you're telling a story about a group of people and they're all queer, you're telling a queer story. I don't see why this is a contentious idea.

And "some of them are queer and some are not" is broader than that. Like, objectively speaking, a group of people where some of them are queer and some are not is more diverse than a group where all of them are queer or where none of them are queer. Honestly I don't even think you disagree with me? Like, your next sentence is:

This is exactly what I'm saying. I don't think you can or should read the entire P4 cast as queer. I'm not saying that queerness doesn't include a diverse set of identities. I'm not saying that you couldn't have a cast of varied and interesting characters that are all queer. I'm saying that P4 isn't that game and trying to make it that game is a bad idea for all the various reasons I've already mentioned.

I do hope that a P4 remake gives the cast a unique mechanic of some sort that can make it stand out.

Like P3 vanilla had fusion spells, P5 has guns and the various thief stuff, P3 Reload has Thergy. P4 has... nothing.

Is Fusion Spells really a sticking point here when only the MC can use them? I think 3 actually made the party members feel less unique overall because you can equip MC with almost all of the weapon types. Only party member that was fully unique was Aigis due to Orgia Mode and you being unable to use guns. Portable changed this by only giving your selected MC one weapon type.

Saying that "Persona 4 has nothing" is also a bad argument, since it introduced bunch of things that expanded your party members use in combat. Increasing their Social Link gives them different passive abilities like a Diving Save to protect you, unique follow-up attacks, Golden adding stuff like unique spells for their Persona and even combination attack. It's just that Persona 5 just did all those again.

Persona 4 was my first Persona game, so I didn't notice it at the time, but in hindsight...yeah it's weird. Persona 3 had three types of physical attacks (which I still think is one of the more baffling decisions to keep in a soft rebot), and Persona 5 just does the mainline Phys/Gun split which it much more intuitive than Strike/Slash/Pierce.

I'm honestly fine with Persona 4 Remake just having one Physical attack type. I don't think changing that should be a priority. Maybe DDS-style combo attacks that use two plus characters turns in exchange for some crazy effects? Like a -dyne tier spell early game, or a Debilitate for the mid-game?

Okay yeah, maybe there is an argument that Persona 4 feels more dumbed down in terms of core mechanisms in comparison to other SMT games. A remake probably should add something to liven things up, especially with stuff like "Light and Dark elements aren't just instant-kill skills" from P5. Just what it should be is harder to pin down.

Personally, I'm more of a fan of how SMT 5 handles Hama and Mudo (just making them into regular damaging dealing moves with a chance to kill if it hits a weakness). I'm not too big of a fan of Bless and Curse inexplicably being the new supertypes for them. I wanna use Hama, Hamaon, and Hamabarion to deal damage, not just to have Hama and Hamaon as the same old chance to insta-kill garbo we've been dealing with for decades.

x4 MC only things I would say are unique mechanics worthy of note.

Being able to equip all weapons but guns was also a unique thing about P3, yes. Which was useful as it gave a use for high level maces and since you could change equipment in battle it added another layer to it.

The social link skills were also in p5 and P 3 P. P3 and P5 also had the fuse personas into weapons that was missing in P4. P4 is just missing a key something unique like revamping the combo system, giving the MC multi persona attacks like in the anime, w/e.

Edited by Memers on Apr 5th 2024 at 9:57:40 AM

That’s something I’ve liked since they’ve been it doing it since Apocalypse. Instant of wasting space with mostly useless instant death spells who only get slightly better accuracy with ”weakness”, instead having them as damaging skills.

One of the benefits of their collabs with other games where Light/Dark do damage and not instant death.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Apr 5th 2024 at 10:00:37 AM

I'm still a big fan of how Devil Survivor just gives a one-stop Curse element, and bosses are just immune to it. Every ability has some synergy with another. It's still refreshing to have say, a stone spell that works 80% of the time, a Curse ability that instant kills if the enemy's stoned, and loaded on a physical attacker.

In hindsight, P4 having what's probably the most dated combat/RPG gameplay of the modern games now that Reload's out is why I want a P4 remake to begin with.

And yet you can't broach the subject in some places without people looking at you like you grew a third arm or something.

I think the games in general should give you numerical values for the power of attacks. There's a lot of physical attacks, and it's not always clear how powerful they are in realtion with each other from the Weak/Medium/Strong/Severe descriptions.

Generally agreed. Though the way the newer games do damage calcs means that damage numbers aren't that intuitive, since they typically use the square root of the base power. So in order for a move to do double damage it would have to have four times the base power.