Illegal Immigration - racism's new refuge?

A) They have statistics to back up their point of view. Have you any to contradict?

B) Agreed.

C) Again, statistics? To reach the current estimated numbers based on the quantity of visas granted annually by the U.S. is impossible by a factor of at least ten.

D) I don't follow. They don't deserve to be here in the first place according to our laws. Any other country would throw them out. What makes this situation so special?

E) Agreed. Of course, if they're crossing by hiding in the beds of trucks or crawling under fences, documenting them is clearly slightly tricky.

F) Depends on how it's implemented, but this is a real problem. On the other hand, what purpose is served by stopping random white folks and asking if they have citizenship papers — the off chance you'll catch a rogue Canadian?

edited 28th Apr '10 7:55:06 AM by Fighteer

So, De Marquis, basically you think enforcing the law shouldn't be an issue if, as you assert, it's too expensive?

Also, I suspect a lot of legal residents of border states would have a few things to say to you about the costs of illegal aliens on social services like schools, hospitals, and such. Annually, it costs over $10B in California alone to provide services toward which most illegals pay no taxes. And what about ERs that are closing because they can't afford to give the treatment they're mandated by law to give, regardless of the individual's ability to pay? Certainly, illegals aren't the only source of people taking advantage of that law, but they're a rather large chunk of that abuse, and much of the reason people with legitimate emergency issues, where the difference of a few minutes could well be the difference between surviving or not, have to go farther to get to an ER, imposing an indirect cost on others.

edited 28th Apr '10 8:05:27 AM by Nohbody

Long post (well, somewhat long); If I'm honest, I really don' see anything wrong with the enforcement of the law, (hey, maybe we should try it in Mexico someday...) or with the new Arizona Law; It's not a matter of race as much as statistic: Sad but true

It's hard to me to defend my position, since I'm a Mexican, so a lot of people see me as a traitor, and as a Jew (For some reason, everytime there is something wrong with ANY country, we're the easieast targets), but in my home state, Nuevo Leon, we see a similar situation:

Nuevo Leon is the single wealthiest state in Latin America, and some parts of it have a living standard comparable to several European countries, so many immigrants from southern regions of Mexico and Central and South America see my state as a "consolation prize"; it wouldn't be as good as America, but is a lot better than their homelands.

As you may guess, the problems are the same as in any place with overpopulation in America: crime, polution, a education system that just can't keep any standard of quality, drug violence...most of them are in the immigrant zones.

There is some double standard about it: Most of Nuevo Leon natives would say horrible things about those immigrants (often called "san luisitos", "indios", depends of the context, and whinning about how "lazy, stupid or dirty" they are) that are not any better than what Americans say about Mexicans, yet we feel offended when they take actions and honestly, the only reason we haven't implemented in our land is because we're the same country.

I usually make jokes about that maybe Nuevo Leon s declaring its independence, or maybe just be runned as some kind of "special administrative zone" (a la Hong Kong)...but is just a fantasy of mine...

edited 28th Apr '10 8:34:01 AM by Anthony_H

I still think that a special status needs to be created, entitled "economic refugee". Such people are here not out of desire to become Americans, but because even living in poverty here is better than wherever they came from. If people are willing to register as such, they would be entitled to work and living permits. They would not be granted citizenship rights (or even green-cards) unless they go through the application process, and they would be expected to return home should economic conditions improve.

Via registration, you can manage things like healthcare, taxation, and similar benefits and privileges. They would be taxed on their income and those taxes used to set up social benefits for the group as a whole, cover the costs of administering the program, etc.

"still think"? I hadn't heard you propose that before.

Very interesting idea, though.

Yes, the question is whether the improvement in living conditions and pay afforded by being able to legally work and reside here would permit sufficient taxation to provide the services they need. Also, unless you specifically establish regional housing for the workers, you'd have a hard time keeping track of them as they spread throughout the country. Keeping them in ghettos, however, would cause its own special set of problems.

I could see a whole host of benefits, though. For one thing, having an economic refugee card could qualify you for community ESL classes at a reduced (or free) cost. For those who send money home, a special exchange could be established to expedite the process and reduce the costs. Creating a path to citizenship, even if it's difficult and time-consuming, at least gives hope of permanent status.

Some things would have to be done, though. For example, if you commit a crime, your refugee status would be subject to revocation. Similarly if you fail to find productive employment. Families are a problem: if the hubby breaks the law, do we send his wife and kids home too? Children of immigrants under this policy would have to fall under the same rules unless at least one parent obtains permanent status - no automatic citizenship. Also, border crossing would still have to be regulated, and some kind of arrangement made with Mexico to close things down from their side.

People who evade registration would still need to be dealt with, and employers who utilize unregistered workers severely penalized.

Most of my info is coming from this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

A) Effect on economy: The information under "Impact/Economic is pretty self-explanatory. Illegal immigration appears to be helpful overall to the economy while being a small drain on government budgets

B) Deportation is Expensive: Well, if this is agreed, then are we arguing over nothing, really? Does this leave us with no practical alternative to some sort of amnesty program?

C) Percent Overstay: Estimates seem to vary from source to source. One of the sources cited in the wiki article you linked to gave an estimate of 36% of illegals being visa overstays (that was in 2000 IIRC). A 2006 study says 45%. Pew Hispanic Center says it's 4.25 to 6 million out of 10.25-13 million. The differences may to be due to the difficulty of estimating the number of illegal immigrants in this country. Also, the true number may change over time. Lets say "roughly half" while acknowledging the estimates are fuzzy.

D) Deserving to Stay: Dont be such a Javert. Laws are not moral absolutes, they have to applied in a manner that is best for the community as a whole (note to Nohbody: The answer to your first question is yes).

E) Need for Docs: Yes, smuggling is always a problem, but there are ways to mitigate the effects of that. The harder you make it to smuggle someone in, the fewer there will be.

F) Arizona Law=Racist: "what purpose is served by stopping random white folks and asking if they have citizenship papers" None, of course, which puts the entire program in question. I dont think it matters how it's implemented, how exactly could it be implemented that doesnt target mostly innocent hispanics?

Your idea about economic refugees is interesting, depends on how its implemented. Are you suggesting this as a type of amnesty program? That is, for illegals already here?

Anthony H: Your insight from within Mexico is interestig, but it isnt clear what your position is. Could you explain a bit?

^Sorry, I just realized my comment was too vague in my position.

I actually support the Arizona law, mostly because it´s better than the apathy of the Federal Goverment to solve this question, and because I´m a States Rights person.

I seem to remember hearing a somewhere that the racist aspects of the law are deliberate; that it's meant to raise such a stink that the federal government has to do something about the problem.

Yeah, though it's a bit of a Dead Horse Trope, and everyone thinks of illegal immigration, border security is kinda important; as irritating as having untaxed poor people can be, even more worrying is untaxed and unknown criminals (beyond just illegal immigration), smugglers, and *sigh* terrorists wandering across the border.

• If it's so bad US Military personnel aren't allowed across the border, I'm pretty sure I don't want to have to deal with it coming across the border.

edited 28th Apr '10 10:55:11 PM by DrRockopolis

My experiences with entering the US and getting a green card are rather old by now (I came here over a dozen years ago) but I doubt too much has changed. What was the INS now and now is ICE is horrendously inefficient, incredibly stupid, and almost guaranteed to make a mess of your application. They lost my entire application once. They sent notices to an address I'd never lived at and then I suddenly found myself here illegally. I had to hire a lawyer at a cost of over $4000 to get things corrected. Things are incredibly stupid. When I applied, the INS had only had computer systems for a couple of years, and clearly didn't know how to use them. Everything was paper, pretty much.

Even by the standards of the US government, it's atrocious. I guess they know that none of the people applying are yet citizens, so can't vote to kick their asses.

Compare that to the efficiency of the British immigration services; it was simple to have my wife living with me in the UK and getting permanent residency.

I think the US ought to give an automatic green card to all foreign science and engineering graduates from US schools. There's a simple choice there: give them a chance to stay in the US and make money for American companies and pay American taxes, and they will. Deny them the chance to stay, and they'll go home, and work at making their home countries better economic competitors. With today's online economy, they can do the same work back in India or wherever. Wouldn't we rather have them be US taxpayers?

The quality of Indian work is often questionable.

It would make more sense to make them part of the U.S.

Sorry for the necro, but I just wanted to say a few things.

I'm doing a paper that helps argue that illegal immigration is actually beneficial to the United States.

My paper argues that:

• Immigrants tend to occupy different jobs than native workers in the United States.

• Illegal immigrants do much of the labor that most American citizens would not do.

• Illegal Immigrants have no intention of coming to the United States to take advantage of welfare or public assistance programs.

• There is an moral problem with denying people the right to come to the United States, as they are mainly seeking a better life; why deny them that?

• If the government still wants to stop illegal immigration from Mexico, the should focus on trying to help promote proper job growth in Mexico to eliminate the motives for illegal immigration in the first place.

Is there any other point I could argue, and, If so, are there any sources I could cite to help argue these points?

edited 10th Oct '10 6:27:20 PM by IYellalot

Illegal immigrants do much of the labor that most American citizens would not do.

The current downturn has proven this little talking point of the activists false. People are willing to work in anything, just there's no jobs right now. Nobody's hiring and the government is doing all the wrong answers.

Incorrect. Take the farm jobs market. There are tons of openings for farm workers, but the farmers for the most part don't even bother putting up ads for American workers because nobody ever applies.

^^I disagree, actually. Even in this tough economy, I doubt most citizens of the U.S. would be willing to pick fruit in a field for eight hours for ridiculously low wages.

edited 10th Oct '10 6:33:53 PM by IYellalot

Hiring American workers would mean having to check their legal immigration status. Hiring illegals means they don't have to.

Of course the whole thing will be a nonissue anyways. Why? The key to agriculture and solving illegal immigration is mechanization.

Every major crop sans citrus can be harvested much more efficiently and easily and for less cost by machine than even a battalion's worth of illegal immigrants.

All we have to do is invent a harvester that can do that for citrus and the few other remaining crops.

^ Considering such working conditions are in fact illegal by more or less everywhere's laws...

edited 10th Oct '10 6:36:27 PM by MajorTom

Considering such working conditions are in fact illegal by more or less everywhere's laws...

See, that's the thing. Many companies that hire illegal immigrants purposely pay them less than minimum wage. They won't get in nearly as much trouble if they did the same to American citizens.

And how do we address the issue of criminals coming over our borders illegally? That's the biggest hangup. I think illegal immigration would be more of an open and shut case if it weren't for the huge criminal element involved.

People are willing to work in anything, just there's no jobs right now.

I thought the conservative talking point was that there were jobs but unemployed people are lazy.

^ Were we in a severe labor shortage this would be a more valid accusation.

Uh, what? I can't find a single interpretation of that sentence that actually makes sense.

@ Barkey, true but the point could be raised that for the most part the criminal element is there because of the illegality. It would be a lot nicer if you guys actually loosened your entrance policies, because as is your immigration policy is the sort of beuaracratic nightmare that the Republicans traditionally are supposed to hate, but as it keeps people from other countries out they seem to be strangely at peace with it.

This isn't anything new. Immigration has been an issue ever since Persia tried conquering Greece. When I first moved to Vermont, everyone had an obsession with me you'd expect a 19th century novelty consumer to have. Currently it's a positive fascination, though I can imagine doing something wrong and it turning into something like you describe.