Illegal Immigration - racism's new refuge?

They aren't, except for the whole "legal/illegal" thing. It adds yet another burden of disadvantage on the group.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

As a mexican, a few points of interest:

Legal and illegal immigration out of the country, along with money orders sent back  ^*

have been a social and economic release valve that, for good or ill, has helped keep the country stable and even growing by virtue of reducing the number of unemployed  ^*

^{(Not poverty, unemployed)}

and increasing income for many families in marginalized parts of the country.

Assuming perfect border sealing, mass deportations, and an immigration policy that reduces visa emissions to "keep" the jobs held by these immigrants and give them to American citizens, it's likely our country would... I'm sorry, I can't think of a metaphor adequate to describe the shock this would cause.

I don't know if this would cause a revolution (which would be eerie, consider the last one was 100 years ago, and the war of independence 100 years before that) but it would certainly bring about a national crisis. Mind you, that might not be a bad thing... in the long run. In the short it would be every bit as bad as it sounds. The current global crisis combined with the drug related insecurity, structural weakness and economic feudalism has left our economy in a very anemic condition. The return of several thousand conacionals and drop in money orders might well cripple the economy.

I think a harsher US stance on immigration might be good in the long run because of the following. There's a school of thought here that the current "Status Quo Is God" generation of "NO REFORMS!!1!" politicians has avoided all reforms that could modernize the country and increase job creation to protect the monopolies and workers unions because of the above safety valve along with a few others  ^*

. So, take that away and either they'd have to actually make the changes necessary, no matter which special interest groups get pissed off, or keep getting voted out until someone does.

I should mention I'm a very cynical person when it comes to national politics, so I would actually support this despite the hardship it would cause if it meant prosperity without having to take up arms. Again.

So... Mexican prosperity depends on shipping vast quantities of illegal workers to America? That's so cynical as to be almost beyond belief, and correspondingly surprises me not in the least. Hell, screw 'em if that's the reason. Ship 'em all back and seal the border with a fifty foot high steel wall.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

So you're trying to argue that it isn't racist by saying that most Hispanics are probably breaking the law anyway, without any realisation as to how racist this statement is?

I do, however, agree with your economic refugee idea, but I cannot agree with your reasoning for this law not being a terrible idea.

I do have a question though: do you have any idea how expensive it is to get a green card? I am not advocating circumventing the system, I just want to know. Do you?

If 23% of a population is committing a crime, it's not much of a stretch. I'm talking simple math here - racism has nothing to do with it. Look at four Arizona Hispanics. One is an illegal and I'd find it very difficult to believe that at least one of the others doesn't know it. Facts are not racist.

The expense of getting a green card is a non-argument. The whole point of this is that they are here against the laws of the country. They are not supposed to be here. If they cannot get in legally, they are supposed to stay home, not sneak in when nobody's looking. I boggle that this concept is somehow unclear. Economic hardship may explain it, but it doesn't justify it.

If I sneak into Bulgaria without papers and try to pass myself off as a citizen, I'd expect to be caught and deported. Why are Hispanics somehow above this?

edited 27th Apr '10 7:05:38 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

That isn't what I asked.

No, I do not know how much it costs to get a green card. However, I'm cautioning you against derailing the conversation with an irrelevancy.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Irrelevancy? Why is it irrelevant?

For the reasons I cited in my previous post. If you can't be bothered to read two replies above... /sigh

For what it's worth, the Wikipedia article doesn't mention the cost.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

For me, personally, I've spent $1500 and 6 months and still don't have it. I didn't come in on a visa, either; if I had, that'd be another $400. I would not be able to afford this if my in-laws hadn't paid my way.

If you really want your government to do something about illegal immigration, lobby them to make legal immigration cheaper and quicker, otherwise this will continue to be a problem indefinitely. No amount of oppressive, discriminatory laws will change that simple fact.

Actually, that's a lot less than I thought, and certainly less than what I've read you get charged to be smuggled in. Anyway, like I said, the laws are clear. Just because you don't like them is not sufficient reason to break them. You aren't owed entry into the U.S. any more than you're owed a beach vacation or a million dollars. Life doesn't work that way.

There's no magical entitlement that says if you want to get into a country, they have to let you because you really really want it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I did not say that. What I was trying to say was that spending money and resources making laws like the one Arizona has, would be better spent making the process cheaper and more efficient.

Possibly. However, judging by the numbers it's hard to see how the immigration quotas can possibly be increased sufficiently to justify the demand. I skimmed the Wikipedia article where it discusses the "green card lottery". Over 9 million people apply each year for 50,000 cards. Oddly, less than 2 percent are Hispanic; the vast majority are from Africa.

There's no way the U.S. could possibly absorb that many people and remain stable.

And none of this addresses what to do with the people who are here already, illegally. That's what the Arizona law is about; it actually contains no provisions for restricting the flow, only discouraging people from trying. Honestly if the federal government would get off its partisan ass and start addressing the issue, it wouldn't be such a big deal.

The other problem, of course, is the political gridlock within this country. You've got a liberal-conservative split wide enough to park a small country inside, from the "throw 'em all out" on the one hand to the "give amnesty" on the other. Neither side thinks we can simply open our borders and admit all comers, though, and if that's not possible, we need some way to keep people out.

edited 27th Apr '10 7:29:02 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Say that to US nationals that come here and are given permits and are welcomed with big smiles.

^ Er, what? You have a million Americans each year trying to immigrate into your country? That's amazing, I'm sure it's a big social crisis for you. All those impoverished white folks looking for jobs so they can feed their kids back home.

edited 27th Apr '10 7:31:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

The magical entitlement does exists. When you are emigrating from the U.S. to many third world countries. That is my only point.

edited 27th Apr '10 7:35:13 PM by vandro

Given how many immigrants are already in the country illegally, I'd say you could absorb the ones already here just fine. You wouldn't get millions and millions of illegal immigrants if they had anywhere else to go, either; I think Canada should open its borders completely. Harper keeps bitching about northern sovereignty, a good way to keep that would be to build a bunch of towns up there and encourage immigration.

Vandro, your point would only be valid if the U.S. prevents immigration completely. By the numbers in the Wikipedia article, there are quotas for all kinds of immigration - somewhere around 500,000 annually in total. I highly doubt there are enough U.S. emigrants to stretch even the lightest of quotas in other countries.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Fair enough.

As an aside, I notice a distinct lack of noise made, almost anywhere, about how much harsher immigration laws entering Mexico are than those regarding entering the US, legally or otherwise.

While I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the conditions in Mexico making it less appealing to enter Mexico than to enter the US, there are those who enter Mexico for various reasons, legal or not. If "not" and you're caught, as I understand it, the "Sheriff Joe" treatment is almost a pleasure cruise in comparison, especially in jails outside the big cities.

All your safe space are belong to Trump

Folks in the military are currently banned from going to Mexico without Commander approval first. Deemed unsafe.

Silly Mexicans they believed us.

Please don't take ^ too seriously I meant it as a joke, mostly

Watch what you say...Joe McCarthy is reading your posts.

Mexico is a hellhole. I don't blame the people there for wanting to come here. I wish we could satisfactorily accommodate them all. The sad fact is that by third-world birthrates, they could keep shipping people to us for eternity and never run out.

My son is adopted from Guatemala. I've been there and seen the poverty. I visited Antigua Guatemala and saw the gangs of child beggars. It's not pretty. But the solution is not "admit all comers". That's a great way to turn the Southern U.S. into "North Mexico".

edited 27th Apr '10 9:00:31 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Cross link.

Fight smart, not fair.

I still aint buying it:

A) Illegal (not just legal) immigrants arnt the drain on our economy that critics seem to think they are

B) Getting rid of illegal immigrants would cost so much that it would be a drain on government budgets, and the ability of law enforcement agenies to do their more traditional jobs

C) Most of them didnt enter illegally, they entered legally (i.e. had a legitamite reason for coming here- one that was approved by our government) and overstayed their visas- mostly because of bureacratic delays we impose on them, by underfunding Customs and Immigration

D) This "crime" doesnt seem to me to carry the moral weight that it does for some others (they dont deserve to be deported for this)

E) We do need to find a way to fully document people entering this country so that we can regulate the numbers better- there are ways to do this that our country hasnt fully explored

F) Harrassing law abiding legal immigrants and natural citizens of a certain color in order to deal with what is essentially a policy issue constitutes institutional racism

To the OP I am still saying: yes

edited 28th Apr '10 7:20:43 AM by DeMarquis

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."