Pokémon General Thread

No, but each move is part of the completed product. Everything that is added is added in the hope that a more complete product will sell better. All those seemingly inconsequential additions add up.

For the metagame it's supposed to be a chain effect: Game is released, people buy it, the metagame is improved which draws more people into it, more people buy the game.

edited 2nd Aug '12 8:47:08 PM by Saiga

Speaking of your avatar is that meant to be Roxanne in the corner?

edited 2nd Aug '12 8:47:46 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM

Oh for the love of god, Stealth Rock is not broken! It's a damn good move, but it's not an "I win" button! If your team is crippled by it, you need to rethink your team, cause Rock is a common attacking type in the metagame, and having a glaring weakness like that is just stupid, even if Stealth Rock didn't exist.

You got some dirt on you. Here's some more!

Every single competitive strategy is written under the assumption that Stealth Rock is set. It's not a possibility, it's a guarantee. Several decent Pokemon are rendered useless by it, and there's no method to avoid or counter it, like there is with Spikes and Toxic Spikes. I would argue that it does, indeed, over-centralize the metagame.

I sure said that!

Yeah, that's Roxanne. My pic is a cropped version of this◊.

Anyway, the problem with Stealth Rock is that it overcentralizes the game around it. I mean, you have Rapid Spinners who pretty much exist solely to keep it off the battlefield, and Spinblockers who exist solely to prevent Rapid Spin, and Spinblock Killers to deal with those... It just feels like an escalating arms race over one single move that draws attention from other tactics and battle situations to steal center stage. Not to mention it makes several Pokemon nearly unusable. Spikes and Toxic Spikes at least don't bully certain types the way SR does.

Magic Bounce does counter it fully, if you send out Espeon/Xatu before they use it. But that's also setting it up on the opponent's field, too, and it just still gets messy.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:06:57 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

You'd think that since your handle is "Anomalocaris", you would have used Anorith/Armaldo instead of Omastar.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:10:11 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM

I've used their sprites for a while, but I thought this pic's rendition of Omastar was too good to pass up.

Anyway, you ever hear how people call Team Fortress 2 "America's #1 War-Themed Hat Simulator" as a lighthearted jab at how everything seems so focused on trading for and collecting hats to the point that the main purpose of the game takes a backseat? At times it feels like Pokemon's metagame, at least back in DP especially, was "Japan's #1 Battle-Themed Floating Pointy Rock Simulator".

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:13:32 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

At times I feel that most people forget the main game even exists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM

The reason Smogon assumes it is always in place is because they like their teams to be prepared for anything. In reality, although a lot of teams use it, there are plenty that don't. Spinners aren't just their for Stealth Rock, other entry hazards can also be a hassle for the team.

The only really decent Poke I can think of that's nerfed to hell by Stealth Rock is Yanmega.

I just don't like how it was such a focus of battles.

The problem I (Not sure about other people) have with Stealth Rock is that it isn't just a powerful strategy; it was an inevitable, near-universal menace. Practically every team in Gen 4 had a Stealth Rock guy, and most teams have Rapid Spinners. Esoteric gimmicks like entry hazards or weather or Trick Room should not be universal, because those aren't what Pokemon is normally about. They should be viable, but they shouldn't be everywhere.

I think Toxic Spikes is Stealth Rock done right. Toxic Spikes is really strong, but it's limited. It's not a strategy you can just slip onto any Poke lead. If you want to use an entry hazard, you're restricted in your choices, and restrictions make the game more fun. Unfortunately, instead of being a new and interesting entry hazard, Stealth Rock was made a TM that virtually anyone can learn, because if there's something we need more of, it's homogenization of movesets.

And don't give me crap about how "X would run rampant in the metagame if Stealth Rock wasn't big." Competitive sites like Smogon already have no problem banning the crap out of Excadrill, Garchomp, or anything else that dominates the metagame. If Stealth Rock wasn't everywhere, the game would be dramatically different, but dramatically different doesn't mean bad.

Thankfully, no more Stealth Rock TM in Gen 5 is a step in the right direction. We don't need to see Stealth Rock disappear; just make it a move that doesn't go on every single lead.

Unfortunately, Weather is the new Stealth Rock in a lot of ways.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:23:52 PM by Scardoll

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.

Guess what, Stealth Rock...strikes back.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:21:42 PM by rmctagg09

Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.

And now it's back in B/W2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM

No other hazards are as mean as Stealth Rock though. Spikes hits everyone (Except those who fly or levitate) for equal damage, at least, and light damage at that. Toxic Spikes affect everyone except the flyers, levitators, Poison types, and Steel types equally, and even then not that significantly unless you set your strategy around it. Stealth Rock completely destroys anyone weak to Rock. Notice that in DP, the only Pokemon in OU who were weak to Stealth Rock were the behemoths of Gyarados, Dragonite, Togekiss, and Zapdos, plus the not-caring-about-damage-sustained Aerodactyl (Who pretty much was only there TO set up SR)

Also every Fire type in OU had a secondary typing resistant to Rock (I think Ice, Flying, and Bug type save for the aforementioned Flying types had a secondary typing making them resistant too, though I could have sworn Weavile was there too since it dies to one hit anyway).

Oh, and Ninjask was OU too, but you know why that is.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:28:09 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

It's still not broken though.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally find it's sort of unfair to make many Pokemon completely unusable since they're losing a quarter to a whole half of their health whenever they enter, not to mention even against neutral targets Stealth Rock deals as much damage as two whole layers of Spikes and hits EVERYONE*

unlike Spikes.

And again, it's not even about it being broken or not, it's about it turning "Pokemon Battling" into "Pokemon Making Pointy Rocks Float (with some battling on the side!)"

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:33:25 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

Frankly, "it's not broken" doesn't mean we have to enjoy it. I don't mind it making some Pokemon unusable (The only notable one I can think of is Yanmega), but I do mind how teams, movesets, and battles warp around it.

...It's back as a move tutor. Well, cheers.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:37:07 PM by Scardoll

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.

Not maybe, it's definitely not broken. Being over-centralizing is another matter, and weather beats it out in that field.

It hits everyone to give it a niche over the other entry hazards and so that Flying types can't switch in too easily. It's a pity that it discriminates again types, but as Marioguy said a Rock type weakness is definitely not desirable and multiple rock weaknesses is bad team building.

I know that. I don't like it either. But it isn't fair to say it ruined the metagame.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:36:39 PM by Saiga

What's the big deal about Stealth Rock anyways? Is it only good in competitive battling or something?

Alt account of Angeldog 2437.

Competitive battling has a lot more switching then you'd see in-game, which makes entry hazards much more viable.

Is Protect allowed in competitive play?

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:39:36 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM

...How would you possibly manage to do that when you're switching in?

Protect is allowed. It's one of the things that makes Ninjask pretty damn awesome, and it also makes moves like Fly pretty damn terrible (Although they already sucked).

And Stealth Rock is powerful because there is a lot of switching, and because it effectively increases the damage output of a lot of Pokemon. It doesn't have much of an immediate effect, but it has a great cumulative effect.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:43:41 PM by Scardoll

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.

It was related because we are talking about competitive play-viable moves...

*Face Palm*

Unless you are using the move to escape an attack rather than for offense.

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:46:03 PM by MagcargoMan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8yAjWvAqyM

I still think it's unfair that anything weak to Rock is basically killed just by entering.

I'm not as familiar with Gen V's metagame, but if the rumors of it being "Japan's #1 Pokemon-Battle-Themed Forecast Channel Simulator" is true, then ick. Though at least weather is more variable and battle-based than Stealth Rock... And more dangerous, to be fair.

Protect is mainly used on things like Blaziken and Ninjask to guarantee a turn of Speed Boost. It's also sometimes seen on stallers like Dusknoir or Blissey, to protect them from harm while the foe takes damage from Toxic or something.

The only moves that are banned are Double Team and Minimize (for making battles even more luck-based), and the OHKO moves (Again, luck based, though in this case it's less like you're battling and more like you're flipping a coin to see who wins)

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:45:43 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

While I was showering a thought came to me. To my understanding Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection and the Nintendo Network are incompatible. If that's true, how are we going to transfer our Pokemon once we finally make the jump to the 3DS? Some sort of website? Are we going to start over a la Gen II-III again?

Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.