The sky-high aircraft and aviation thread

Everybody always thinks they can bomb their enemy into submission. Unless you're fighting a nation of cowards or using nukes, it'll never work. They'll just hate you more and fight harder.

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'

Well, I meant more in terms of bomber technology advancing - although WWII bombers aren't especially impressive by today's standards, I believe back then they were much better than the relatively archaic WWI incarnations. Perhaps they felt that the larger amount of devastation that modern bombers could wreak would break Britain's will to resist. Of course, that kind of backfired as we all know.

On a slightly different tack, I'm not sure why so many Italian bombers had three engines. Perhaps someone could shed some light on that?

Locking you up on radar since '09

Savoia-Marchetti sticking with what they knew?

edited 7th Apr '12 12:37:37 PM by InverurieJones

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'

Perhaps, but I know Cant also did it, so it's not solely Savoia-Marchetti. I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head, though.

Locking you up on radar since '09

Maybe they were members of the Ju-52 appreciation society.

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'

What won the Battle of Britain? Radar. And Hermann Goering's complete failure to come to grips with its importance. Which became a theme for German high command during the rest of the war as it was radar that stuffed the Kriegsmarine's U-Boats during the Battle of the Atlantic.

Radar coupled with the robust defenses they put up.

Who watches the watchmen?

My favourite British AA weapon. The 40mm Bofors gun. More power ho ho ho ho.

edited 7th Apr '12 2:44:45 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

Let's not forget that the Luftwaffe was basically a tactical rather than a strategic air force. A medium bomber like the He-111 or Do-17 really isn't suited for city bombing. If Germany was hitting us with heavy bombers like B-17s or Lancasters our cities would have paid for it.

edited 8th Apr '12 6:25:43 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

That is true to. They did not have Lancasters or Flying Fortress bombers carpet bombing in massive formations.

Who watches the watchmen?

Reason for that? Ernst Udet and Hermann Goering. There have been whole books written on how badly both those men screwed up the procurement process for the Luftwaffe. They didn't pay attention to the three great truths about warfare - amateurs discuss tactics, professionals talk strategy, and those who really know what they are talking about discuss logistics.

Udet, strangely enough, knew all about strategic bombing carried out by four engined aircraft, from work he and others helped do with the Russians yet dismissed it in favour of his pet dive-bombers, of which the famous Stuka was just one of them. The problem for the Luftwaffe was that it never separated itself from its first and primary role, which was close support to ground troops and armored formations.

I believe even the Ju-88 was a dive bomber; not exactly the most obvious candidate for such a task, is it?

Locking you up on radar since '09

The Ju-88 has a special place in my heart for being so damned versatile.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Yup. It was also made into one of the best night fighters of the war, once the Germans got their integrated air defense system sorted and made radar small enough to fit inside two-engined aircraft. Had the Schräge Musik (in English translated as Jazz Music) system fitted and RAF Lancaster, Halifax, Wellington and Stirling bombers fell to its song.

When British and American pilots got their hands on the Ju-88 during and after the war, they loved it to bits. Indeed the ones the French got hold of only went out of service in 1951!

I'm kind of curious why the Allies didn't try to copy the Schräge Musik installations if they were so successful - after all, it wasn't as though night fighters never ended up landing accidentally at British airfields!

On another note, here's what happens when you don't check your landing gear is down when you're about to land:

Nobody was hurt.

That high pitched beep is a warning horn indicating that the landing gear hasn't been extended. I'm kind of curious why something so ear piercing was ignored, even in a high workload environment. Keep in mind also that these were two pilots with plenty of experience.

Also, here is a second video depicting the minutes leading up to (and including) an unfortunately fatal aviation accident - unusually from within the cockpit*

. The alarming thing - at least for me - is that the pilot had plenty of opportunities to gain altitude and find a safer route around the mountain, but he kept descending in an attempt to get a better look at the scenery. He only seems to realise the danger he's in at the end. Keep in mind that this is in bright daylight rather than in IMC or in conditions that might lead to IMC.

I have to admit it was rather unsettling watching two different but presumably competent pilots making major errors like that. Do you guys think something could be done to ensure those sorts of accidents don't happen (especially in terms of GA)? Why do you think they ended up making those mistakes?

Locking you up on radar since '09

Well, according to wikipedia and other sources I have read over the years, they just either didn't have a clue what Schräge Musik was, or refused to believe that there was a threat in the first place. Remember, this is a Bomber Command leadership team we are talking about who had ordered the removal of all armour plating from the four-engined bomber fleets in favour of more bomb load, and had a record of treating air crew who complained about the losses that their mates were taking like they were scum, branding them with L.M.F, (lack of moral fibre).

Schräge Musik was still killing Allied bomber crews until at least February 1945. This bit is revealing -

"NJG-4 was operating from Gutersloh (later an RAF base) and in the space of 20 minutes, between 20.43 and 21.03, Schnaufer and his crew, using their upward firing cannons, shot down seven Lancasters. As it was, on that black night, four night fighter crews accounted for 28 of the 62 bombers lost out of the 800 despatched." - referring to the Mitteland-Ems Canal Raid, 21 February 1945 (source is wikipedia, from Mason, Francis K. The Avro Lancaster. Bucks, UK: Ashton Publications Ltd., First edition 1989. ISBN 978-0-946627-30-1)

In case you missed that, one night fighter crew achieved an amount of kills that would beat that required to make the pilot an ace in twenty minutes, just by using Schräge Musik. He went on to shoot down a further three aircraft that night, making him a double ace.

And as no British heavy bomber had a worth-while ventral (under fuselage) turret fitted, they had no defence against Schräge Musik other than a particularly well switched-on pilot and crew who noticed that there was a Hun formating directly underneath them and decided that it wasn't too good an idea to allow that sort of thing.

There is a saying that popped up on another thread I like. "No amount of smarts makes up for information that you do not have."

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

It doesn't help that it was probably rather difficult to pick out a night fighter, especially once it started to tuck itself under the fuselage. The paint schemes wouldn't have helped matters, either.

Out of curiosity, were Schräge Musik equipped night fighters ever brought down accidentally due to the target being hit and subsequently colliding with them?

Locking you up on radar since '09

Well, from memory, yes. Until the pilots of the Schräge Musik equipped night fighters got wise to fact that the best way to bring down the heavies was to shoot out the wings and set the fuel tanks there on fire, they did lose aircraft and crew from cannon shells exploding the bomb load that the bombers were carrying in their fuselages and thus taking them out along with their targets.

I don't seem to be able to find numbers for that but I would assume it was more than one.

I finally got around to taking a picture of one of my favorite books, something the thread might enjoy.◊

Let God do His work, we will see to ours. Bring in the candles.

Oh hey, cool. I haven't read that book, but it looks neat.

Locking you up on radar since '09

I'd recommend it if you want a good history of the 160th/US Army special operations in the last thirty years or so. The fact my copy is signed has nothing to do with that endorsement.

Let God do His work, we will see to ours. Bring in the candles.

Duly noted.

Locking you up on radar since '09

I love Wikipedia. To help confirm memories if nothing else, 8-)

The United States Army Airforce had the Northrop P-61 Black Widow night fighter, which had a remotely-operated four-gun turret fitted with M2 .50 calibre machine-guns which "could deliver a Schräge Musik–like surprise of its own, from below an enemy aircraft..." This aircraft was used in just about every theatre of war that the USAAF had a hand in, including over Northern Europe.

The same Nightstalkers you can mod in for Operation Flashpoint? The ones that use Littlebirds?

Edit: bought it on Amazon.co.uk. Worth a punt and I can give it to my local library when I have finished with it.

edited 9th Apr '12 2:09:39 PM by TamH70