A Song Of Ice And Fire

"A" Throne they said. As in the Throne of Winter. Queen of the North. As far she knows she's the only legit Stark left.

This won't happen (probably) but imagine if Sansa becomes Queen in the North, everything's dandy, and then who should appear but Bran. I imagine Sansa would give up the throne for him (if Bran would take it, which I doubt) but that would certainly be an awkward moment.

It's fine.

Edited by king15 on Mar 27th 2024 at 9:50:44 AM

Sorry, I thought you meant Westross's throne, not Winterfell.

Sansa did become queen of an independant North in the TV series so who knows?

Edited by jawal on Mar 27th 2024 at 9:48:35 AM

In the tv series all of the surviving Stark children (and Jon Snow who is "not a Stark") all more or less agreed that Sansa should be Queen of the North. The rest all had other shit they wanted to do anyway. Jon in particular was well and truly sick of the Game of Thrones.

As for Myrcella being queen...no. We just don't know that much about her one way or another. We see even less of her than we do of Tommen.

I don't think anyone from the Lannisters or Baratheons make for good rulers in the end, albeit for different reasons. Of all of them, only Jaime seems to realize he's not ruler material and thus has no desire to renounce being a Kingsguard. Despite everything he's done, the honor of knighthood still means something to him and he truly wants to be the Sword of Morning. He's one of the few Lannisters who has engaged in anything close to self-reflection, albeit only after he lost his sword hand and with it the validation he got from being a Master Swordsman.

Edited by M84 on Mar 27th 2024 at 11:02:45 PM

Actually, I think we see enough of Myrcella to guess that she might make a fine ruler - but she's a woman in a deeply sexist society, the incest thing means her rule will always be contested and/or provide a precedent for further usurpation attempts and resulting political crises, and Team Lannister needs to be kept far away from political power.

Sansa might be able to leverage the food resources of the Vale and the treasury Littlefinger stole to buy herself some goodwill. I think that after the War for the Dawn, Westeros will be a bit of a political tabula rasa where I can see a woman making a pitch. Not a likely outcome, I know, but I would like to see Sansa ruling Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

Jaime can want to be anyone he likes, as of AFFC he's just distributing the spoils of the Red Wedding and pretending that it's the just thing to do. Granted, if Red Wedding 2.0 goes down and as I suspect he's there to see it, he might have a realization that what the Lannisters did in the Riverlands was, in fact, the wrong thing to do. I mean, if the gods in their wrath resurrected Catelyn Tully from the dead to wreak death and destruction on the Freys and Lannisters...

He still stands out for being perhaps the only Lannister not interested in running anything one way or another. Even Tyrion did want to have some position of authority and responsibility to validate himself. Heck, I'm pretty sure the only reason he wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was because he (rightly) didn't think any of the others were up to it after Selmy was fired.

I think the one thing that really sets Myrcella apart from Tommen was that she's been separated from Cersei. It's a sign of just how awful an influence Cersei is that Myrcella being left with the Martells — a bunch of snakes in their own right — has been mostly good for her.

Barring of course being nearly killed and permanently scarred.

After everything that's happened, I doubt Sansa wants to be anywhere near King's Landing again. My guess is that she'll be fine with being Queen of the North.

Edited by M84 on Mar 28th 2024 at 7:29:50 PM

Jaime can want to be anyone he likes, as of AFFC he's just distributing the spoils of the Red Wedding and pretending that it's the just thing to do. Granted, if Red Wedding 2.0 goes down and as I suspect he's there to see it, he might have a realization that what the Lannisters did in the Riverlands was, in fact, the wrong thing to do.

Yeah, I’m 100% in agreement with this. One of the most frustrating things about Jaime is that the only place his “redemption arc” is occurring is within his own head.

Jaime is in "minimizing damage" mode now.

This means that he's providing Edmure an "out" where he doesn't get executed as a threat to the Frey's rule and a small keep/knightdom for his family. He also supervises the surrender of the Riverlanders so it doesn't end in the slaughter of everyone at Riverrun.

He thinks the war is over and is trying to be merciful in victory.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 28th 2024 at 6:39:34 AM

One big problem Jaime faces with his attempted redemption is the one he's been facing his whole life: Conflicting Loyalty.

He's always been torn between one person or another, one oath or another. And his inability to decisively choose one or the other until it's too late has always bit him in the ass.

Currently he's still trying to be a better "true" knight and a loyal member of House Lannister. But those two are just not compatible since House Lannister's circling the drain and is beyond redemption.

Edited by M84 on Mar 28th 2024 at 9:42:45 PM

Plus, I think he's in a situation that he knows the side he's on is bad (or at least doing bad things), but likely doesn't know where else he could possibly go (similar to Tyrion when he was helping the Lannisters, he clearly knew Joffrey wasn't exactly a great king, but still felt like he had to stay and help). He's currently settled at supporting the bad side, and try to make it slightly less bad (he's far from perfect during the siege of Riverrun, for example, but did make the situation much better for his side and avoided making it too terrible for the opposite side).

And the one time he did go against a tyrant, he was branded 'Kingslayer'. Wow, between Jaimie and Theon, it's clear that the politics and values of Westeros breed conflicting loyalties.

Edited by king15 on Mar 28th 2024 at 1:48:18 PM

It doesn't help that his role models like Sir Arthur Dayne are still held up as examples of "true" knights even though they also served a tyrant and — in Arthur's case — was complicit in a supposed kidnapping and kept a woman prisoner in a tower leading to her death.

I thought the general inference by this point (by readers, going from the text, rather than among the Westerosi) was that Lyanna probably went with Rhaegar willingly, and died in childbirth?

Edited by Galadriel on Mar 28th 2024 at 6:49:20 AM

That wouldn't necessarily change M84's point as Jaimie still values (and learns from) a man who he thinks was complicit in kidnapping, Jaimie doesn't know the true story.

Edited by king15 on Mar 28th 2024 at 1:50:35 PM

Almost no one in-universe knows what really happened with Lyanna.

If Brienne really does intend to betray Jaime to Stoneheart, one wonders what effect it would have on him.

Even if he learns she did it to save the life of Pod, Jaime has always been driven by his emotions first and logic a distant second. I imagine he'd feel the betrayal deeply.

I honestly have no idea how the three of them are getting out of that sticky situation. I mean, Catelyn at her best probably wouldn't accept: "Sorry I threw your kid out of a window, but I feel really bad about it and have (mildly) sympathetic motives". Stoneheart certainly wouldn't.

Completely forgot about the whole doing little to save her daughters thing. Granted, there's not much he could have done, but yeah, that's another reason for Stoneheart to kill Jaimie. She's already killed people for much, much less (such as Freys completely unrelated to the Red Wedding).

Edited by king15 on Mar 28th 2024 at 2:52:17 PM

At this point it's not even (entirely) about Jaime pushing Bran out the window. Cat also thinks that Jaime betrayed her after she freed him, rather than help free Sansa like he swore.

If he tells her he tried, she won't believe him. He's both a Lannister and the Kingslayer, and as far as Cat knows, he has shit for honor.

Oh, Cathyn already know that part, he told her everything in A Clash of Kings, and her response was to help him escape, weakening her son's position and pushing Rickard Karstark (whose sons were killed by Jaime) into rebelling against Robb.

.................

It is the fact that Sansa and Arya were not returned as promised, and that he fought her brother against his oath, that Jaime will have to explain.

The first was not his fault, and for the second, he technically didn't fight.

But Cathliyn is not exactly a fair and impartial judge, and he can't get away with promising something else.

....................

A way for the story to go, is for the Brotherhood to keep Jaime as a hostage or a bargaining chip, until he either escapes or dies.

Edited by jawal on Mar 28th 2024 at 3:03:43 PM

And given she heard Roose Bolton's whole "Jaime sends his regards" bit when he killed Robb there's probably not much reason for her to even consider listening to him...

Just another example of Jaime saying something that bites him in the ass. Roose said that because he remembered Jaime sarcastically telling him to send them his regards.

One of the things I like about this series is how so much bad shit happens because of multiple characters' flaws clashing. Everyone's shitty in a different way, and all that shittiness enables the rest.

Edited by M84 on Mar 28th 2024 at 11:33:59 PM

Technically speaking, we don't know for sure what went down between Lyanna and Rhaegar, but it's worth noting that even if she went with him willingly at first, her stay at the Tower of Joy and Jon's conception might have been less willing.

^^^There is also the question whether anyone would agree that the trebuchet thing would count as "not fighting". Or for that matter whether Jaime had any business to come to Riverrun sans Sansa and Arya around.

FWIW, if "Red Wedding 2.0" theory is true i.e that Stoneheart is planning a big massacre during the incoming wedding between Daven and a Frey, I think it's possible that she'll make Jaime watch the slaughter. That would give Brienne the opportunity to break him free - and also to give Jaime the realization that he really really should not have done what he did in AFFC.

Which thing?

When he threatens to catapult Edmure's son to get him to help?

Edited by king15 on Mar 29th 2024 at 5:38:56 PM

@Septimus - Ooh, that's an interesting thought. Would make for a good parallel to Jaime being un Unwitting Instigator of Doom by telling Roose to share his regards, and Jaime being forced to view a second Red Wedding.

On an unrelated topic, I read something recently on Twitter criticizing in Dune (which I can't speak to) and ASOIAF the idea of having ancient noble houses with only a few members and which die out. I do agree with the point in general, but honestly, it's kind of Truth in Television.

Thinking for example of the very unfortunate De La Pole family which fared badly in the Wars of the Roses. Basically, they were a cadet branch of the royal family, descended from Geoffrey Chaucer's marriage to the sister-in-law of John of Gaunt.

Chaucer's grand-daughter, Alice was married three times. Her third husband, the only one who she had children (one son) with was future Shakespeare character William de la Pole first Duke of Suffolk (executed). She had no surviving descendants as her male grandchildren were variously executed, killed in battle, or imprisoned for life (or if luckier, joined the Church) and her female grandchildren had no issue or joined the Church.

Edit - It's of a Frey/Westerling situation since Alice's husband was a leading Lancaster supporter and after his execution she flipped sides to the Yorkists and that's the allegiance her descendants followed, to their detriment.

Edited by Hodor2 on Mar 29th 2024 at 2:45:34 AM

ASOIAF is very accurate in regards that it has huge noble families, as in the gigantic amounts of blood ties, and yet only a few members of noble houses.

Generally, when the family name is only carried from male to male, and (usually in real life and seemingly always the case in Westeros) only through legitimate lines at that, then the actual amount of members of that house will be diminished. That, of course, wouldn't affect the general amount of blood relations (via female lines, for example).

In real life, some noble house can have tons and tons of members, like the Greater Clan Stuart, for example, which still has many members alive today (though the specific royal branch has died out). Meanwhile, the houses of Normandy, Plantagenet and Tudor have, as far as I know, died out. Obviously, these are specifically royal houses, but the same logic should apply to noble houses as well (due to having the same method of male to male continuing of the line). It's rare for families (biologically speaking) to die out: most of Britain is descended from the house of Normandy, for example, but it certainly isn't rare for noble houses to die out. And that's not even considering that the series has several examples of houses being specifically targeted for destruction, which would naturally increase the number of houses where the name will die out.

So it's not unrealistic that there's only about 7 legitimate Starks at the start of the series, or that here is about 100 Freys. Noble Houses, like the Stuarts, can certainly live on to have hundreds of descendants (and they didn't even have someone like Walder whose life goal seems to be imitating a rabbit). Yet, houses like the House of Normandy can also die out.

Edit: Plus, there's different circumstances. The Southern families (like the Tyrells and especially the Lannisters) are generally shown to have much more members. Given the much nicer conditions in the south, I imagine infant mortality (which would be very high in the world of Westeros) is significantly lower there than the North. So a fairly low amount of Starks initially (as well as the Doylist reason that it helps the underdog narrative later in the series if the only Starks are the ones we have been introduced to, with only the Karstarks as, very distant though still technically Stark, cousins) makes sense.

Edited by king15 on Mar 29th 2024 at 1:51:26 PM