A Song Of Ice And Fire

Aegon gets flanderized and/or given the Ron the Death Eater treatment because a big part of this fandom seems to think that being a sore loser is a clear sign that you're an entitled sociopath but most of what we see of him suggest that he has potential to be a good ruler.

I think people don't take him seriously because he's a johny-come-lately who's a roadblock for Dany and unevitably some kind of fake.

And if he is legit introducing him in book 5/7 is kinda BS.

I could see him becoming a popular and beloved king, especially if he defeats the Lannisters, only to be defeated and killed by Daenerys. Varys' work being undone by someone who he disregarded as a disposable pawn would be very poignant.

Edited by SilentColossus on Mar 25th 2024 at 7:58:09 AM

That's it really. Say what you want about the reveal in Season 7 of the show that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne, but at least it was an existing character and had some more noticeable foreshadowing. It was a lot easier to swallow from a narrative point of view.

A new character appearing out of nowhere and revealing that he is the true Targaryen heir and getting to Westeros before Daenerys all make him somewhat annoying as a character. That's another benefit with Jon, at least that was only revealed after Daenerys had made it to Westeros and began to stake her claim.

Now of course, Aegon could be revealed to be illegitimate or an imposter or a terrible ruler who must be stopped or a fascinating complex character, and I think Martin could/will do any of those, but at the moment, Aegon isn't the best narratively.

Edit: Actually, that would be cool as well. That's probably quite likely to happen and would be a less sudden (and more morally grey) indicator that Daenerys is in her mad queen stage than the one that happens in the show. I actually prefer that to Aegon being revealed to be mad.

Edited by king15 on Mar 25th 2024 at 12:08:01 PM

I think Aegon's story will be used to connect the Blackfyre stuff to the main plot. Note that the Blackfyre backstory was more or less ignored in the Game of Thrones tv series which also cut out Aegon.

Instead it was given to Cersei, even though Cersei's characterization was totally incompatible with Aegon's story function. The second classic problem with adaptational changes (the first being chronology changes)

There are a couple of problems with Tommen. One, since he isn't Robert's son, he doesn't have a legitimate claim and his rule will be contested and perhaps encourage further usurpations down the road. Two, his entourage includes Cersei, Littlefinger, Pycelle and the grasping Tyrells. Three, I really don't know what he is going to be as king.

Well, not Pycelle. Pycelle got his head smashed in by Varys.

As for how Tommen's shaping up to be king, probably a mini Baelor the Blessed. He's fallen under the sway of a fundamentalist zealot of the Seven.

Edited by M84 on Mar 26th 2024 at 2:33:53 AM

I do wonder how much of Tommen's meekness is the product of having to grow up around Cersei and Joffrey, though.

We see him trying to assert his authority at one point against Cersei and she immediately forces him to whip his whipping boy bloody and says she's gonna have Qyburn remove the poor guy's tongue if Tommen shows anymore "insolence".

In other words: The moment he shows even the slightest bit of spine, his own mother immediately rips it out.

Honestly, having Kevan around would have probably been good for the boy - Kevan definitely seems like the most stable and well-rounded among the Lannisters - but well...

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Mar 26th 2024 at 8:24:51 PM

Yeah, way back when I pointed out that Tommen suffers from mixed messages. His mother complains he's too soft but punishes him whenever he tries to stand up to her.

That's another point against Tommen's kingship. He's got a rogue spymaster deliberately messing things up to make it easier for someone else to take the Iron Throne.

Another reason Tommen's so meek is that as of A Dance with Dragons, he's still only nine years old. He's not even in his teens.

It's honestly more surprising that Tommen and Myrcella turned out to be relatively good kids. You just look at everyone else in their lives and ask "How?"

Edited by M84 on Mar 27th 2024 at 3:29:57 AM

I have no doubt Aegon will never get anywhere near the Iron Throne and Cersei is going to be the final boss.

And if you think I'm just pulling this out of my ass, I point out:

• Cersei will be overthrown by a queen younger and more beautiful than her, not a Mummer's Dragon.
• The Mummer's Dragon is not shown to be that big of an obstacle in Daenery's vision.
• Cersei will end up being executed by her younger brother, which is probably the end of Jaime's character arc and not going to happen earlier.

In practical political terms too, the only thing that Aegon really has going for him is Jon Connington and he's going to turn as soon as he discovers the boy isn't Rhaegar's son.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 26th 2024 at 12:37:32 PM

The YMBQ does not have to be someone who wants the Iron Throne for herself as Cersei herself isn't sitting it either, y'know. And one YMBQ candidate (Arianne Martell) has agents in King's Landing that could kill Cersei's remaining children and/or help her overthrow along.

Kevan is still a war criminal, aiding-and-abetting an usurpation and had Cersei marched naked through the streets. Not such a nice person actually.

That still doesn't mean he's not one of the most stable and well-rounded of the Lannisters. Which I guess says more about the Lannister family as a whole.

He also treats Tyrion pretty fairly, if I recall correctly - which, considering Gerion's interactions with his nephew and what Genna said to Tywin (you know, which makes him not talk to her anymore for a while), makes me honestly wonder if Tywin's pretty much the only one from his generation of Lannister siblings who hates Tyrion.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Mar 26th 2024 at 9:22:28 AM

Yep. Tywin always blamed Tyrion for Joanna's death by childbirth. He's resented Tyrion since his birth and nothing Tyrion could ever do would change that.

It's no wonder Tyrion would become a drunken hedonist when he grew older. Which in turn would only seemingly validate Tywin's low opinion of Tyrion. With an added heap of hypocrisy of course, since we find out Tywin isn't above having sex with prostitutes either.

Out of all of the Lannisters, I'd say Genna was the most stable and reasonable of the lot.

Edited by M84 on Mar 26th 2024 at 4:32:07 PM

Tyrion is pretty much living proof of Tywin's hypocrisy, considering that despite constantly banging on about legacy and the good of the House, Tywin never remarried (to produce another potential heir) nor made a good-faith effort to mentor Tyrion into somebody who could carry on his legacy.

Especially since, as Tyrion points out, he's basically "his father writ small''. They even share the same dislike for being laughed at (albeit for different reasons) and are similarly vindictive.

But I guess Tywin would have had to be not be Tywin to be a remotely decent father.

I think the closest we get to Tywin showing any kind of respect to Tyrion is when he sends him to King's Landing to be the Hand - which he only does because he believes Jaime might be dead and his daughter's shown herself incapable of actually keeping Joffrey in line. In other words, he sends Tyrion because he's got no other children to do the job at that point.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Mar 26th 2024 at 9:38:12 AM

And in the book Tyrion's quite aware of that, and is pissed off that Tywin has written off Jaime like that.

While Tyrion gets it the worst, Tywin's also just a shitty father in general. He outright disowns his supposed favorite Jaime once Jaime makes it very clear that he will not give up being a Kingsguard to be Tywin's heir. Tywin and Cersei's relationship is also shit.

As bad a lord as Tytos Lannister was, he at least was a better father to his children than Tywin was to his children. Not a perfect one — he did marry off Genna to Emmon Frey, a match she very clearly didn't want — but his children still think fondly of him as a father.

Edited by M84 on Mar 26th 2024 at 4:44:54 PM

In regards to Tommen, I still think he's young enough that if you were to remove all the bad influences currently in King's Landing (so, everyone in King's Landing) and replace them with competent advisors without ulterior motives who can teach him how to rule (including how to be stronger) and a good regent to rule in his stead, Tommen could certainly become a good king. He's already a good person, meaning he'd care about his people (which is better than about half the current claimants), and just needs to become stronger and more assertive: he's young enough that those can be taught.

The only problem is, none of that is going to happen. His mom goes between coddling and abusing him, both of which keep him meek, Kevan, the only good influence, is dead, the Tyrells, a self-serving but possibly good influence, are being undermined and, oh yeah, a religious extremist has taken over the capital. Plus, the undermining from Cersei, Varys, the Sand Snakes, the High Sparrow and even the Tyrells aren't exactly helping matters.

Edited by king15 on Mar 26th 2024 at 10:35:14 AM

CharlesPhipps:

Maybe Aegon is the younger and more beautiful queen. Would make more sense if he had arrived in Westeros as Dany's Hot Consort, though.

Re: a younger character's potential to be a good ruler. How good are child kings in general? For the Iron Throne, we have

• Jaehaerys I: got the title as a teen when the realm needed a fresh start, went on to become probably the best king Westeros ever had
• Aegon II: older teen, not a child ruler in the eyes of society, but still heavily influenced by people around him
• Aegon III: traumatized child inheriting a war-torn country, had a lot of shenanigans during his regency, but his later reign wasn't all that unstable
• Daeron I and Baelor I: both not that great for stability, but their combined efforts brought Dorne into the realm in the long run
• Joffrey I: was thrown into an already difficult situation and decided to become the problem for everyone else, died too early to say anything about his long-term potential
• Tommen I: nicer personality than Joffrey, but still a child surrounded by bad influences, oh, and he has a prophecy foretelling his death hanging over his head

That's... probably a better track record than child kings in real life had? Medieval England, at least, was not doing that great with rulers who came into their throne while still young (see: Æthelred "the Unready", Henry III, Richard II, and Henry VI). Were there successful child rulers elsewhere in the middle ages? I acknowledge that "successful" is a subjective term in that context.

Edit for formatting.

Edited by prinzessinnen-und-raben on Mar 26th 2024 at 2:48:45 PM

Mm, Aegon is male, not a YMBQ candidate. Doesn't seem like ASOIAF does prophecies this contrived.

Maybe the true Prince that was Promised was the friends we made along the way.

Edited by king15 on Mar 26th 2024 at 7:40:26 PM

Aegon III is underrated as a king.

He has a peaceful and just reign, and he did his duty by providing multiple heirs to the throne, and strengthening the Dynasty.

He still disliked it because he was melancholic, and not into tourneys and feasts.

And he is blamed for the dragon's extinction, which he has nothing to do with.

....................

Of the current claimants, the best king will either be Aegon / Young Griff (who has the potential to be a one of the best kings) or Stannis (who can curb corruption, and create much-needed legal and social reforms).

I don't think Stannis will get anywhere near the Irone Throne though.

...................

As for Tommen? Even without the Lannisters or the Tyrell around,  I don't think he can become a strong king.

He is simply not a naturally born leader, and he is too weak-willed and doesn't display any high intelligence or charisma.

He is a good kid, (especially compared with Joeffrey) but you need more to govern a place like Westross in times of war.

.......................

If the kingdom were in peace, Tommen would be like  Aenys I or  Viserys I, a generally nice but weak king, who avoids confrontations and gets easily influenced by those closer to him.

But Westross is not at peace now.

For everyone who says Tommen is not a strong enough character to be an effective leader, how do you feel about Myrcella as a hypothetical queen? I know that it is highly unlikely that she would ever get the chance to rule for a variety of reasons, and the narrative doesn't really focus much on her as a character, but she does come across as a reasonably headstrong child. She stood up to Joffrey when he wouldn't let Tommen have his practice jousts, then she comforted Tommen when he cried because she had to leave for Dorne. She's probably the least messed-up of the three siblings, if only because people (including Joffrey) don't mess with her so much.

She seem to be stronger than Tommen yes.

It is hard to say, how she will turn out when she grows up or if she will display some of her mother's behavior when she is older.

...............

But why would you go with  Myrcella when there are other, more qualified non-children candidates for the throne?

Also, though I don't give much weight to the prophecy, Myrcella too is fated to die, before Cersei. though I don't expect this to come true. Since the series is full of false prophecies,.

Myrcella is basically just Tommen but better. I definitely think (ignoring legitimacy, and it's not like that has anything to do with being a good ruler) she could become a great ruler with sufficient tutelage.

As for other people who would make good kings/queens, Sansa still has a lot to learn but I definitely think she has potential: she's already caring and is starting to become more open-minded (compare how she is with Myra to how it's said she was with Jon) and politically savvy. She'll definitely end the series as either a great ruler, or at least someone who could have been a great ruler.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about which characters in general would be good rulers. To be fair, she has a claim to a throne (though granted she's behind 2 people, not that she would know). And, assuming she does die, I doubt it'll be before she's had enough character development to become a good ruler/good ruler potential.

Edited by king15 on Mar 27th 2024 at 9:26:53 AM

Or as a corpse.

Besides Sansa doesn't have any claim to the throne.

................

Edit to respond to 's edit.

What claim?

The closest she comes to the royal family, is that she was betrothed to Joeffrey for a less than a year, before he replaced her with margaery,

If you mean as a cousin of Jon Targaryan, then that is a) not confirmed in the books and b) far-fetched to claim the throne based on that alone.

It was more of who is better among the current climants.

Otherwise, A Stark will always be better.

Edited by jawal on Mar 27th 2024 at 9:36:26 AM