A Song Of Ice And Fire

None.

I think I identify the most with Stannis, for his struggle to get accepted despite his terrible social skills, trying to adhere to justice, finding a man's personality and competency more important than his birth and for looking more at the bigger picture than the other kings do. Also Davos, for being a genuinely nice person devoted to doing the right thing in a series where that can be surprisingly rare.

Rhaegar, for being just too damn perfect to live.

Don't you mean Darkstar?

No, I'm pretty sure he means Darkstar.

edited 11th Jul '14 11:24:58 AM by Gilphon

edited 11th Jul '14 11:32:23 AM by Ninety

15yo is too old for Rhaegar to be considered a "pederast". He was just into jailbait.

edited 11th Jul '14 11:44:54 AM by LogoP

Rhaegar the type of Targaryen who hits on your underage sister because it's easier than women his own age.

oh Logo. I think we'd get be a funny duo. One of us would say something and the other would make an incredulous face and say something to the effect of "oh, when it's Rhaegar and she's 15 it's totally okay but when it's Loras and he's (possibly) 14, Renly's a pedo." cue laugh track

there's one wacky neighbor

edited 11th Jul '14 8:06:00 PM by byakugan0889

I don't think he was saying it was "okay". Just that you couldn't technically call it pederasty.

About 3/4ths of the way through Clash of Kings, and I like that SOME work was done to make Viserys posthumously sympathetic. Instead of the show's "he's a cunt. and now he's dead. wasn't he a bitch?"

This.

Renly first hit on Loras when the later was a squire, meaning around 13. And he doesn't have the excuse of being a product of the "if it bleeds, it breeds" mentallity the Westerosi have towards women. He's just thirsty for lil' boys. Gross.

Edit: On the other hand, I probably should just shut up right now because, over here, especially during ancient times we had an unhealthy appetite for jailbait.

edited 11th Jul '14 8:56:46 PM by LogoP

We don't actually know when Loras and Renly started having feelings for one another. They first met when Loras was thirteen, sure, but there was time for it to progress into a "Hm, my squire is All Grown Up now" situation.

They're not actually alluded to having sex until the second book.

edited 11th Jul '14 9:55:29 PM by kalel94

Also, wouldn't Renly have been 17 at that time?

And seriously, you people use the term pedophile way too freely.

So? 17 year olds can't be pedophiles? Pedophile is anyone with sexual attraction to children aged 13 and bellow (or the 11 and bellow, depending on the source). Renly either qualifies fully or is a borderline case. As is Sandor.

Being attracted to someone who was 13 when you first met is not pedophilia. And using the word to describe the situation is pointlessly inflammatory.

You'll be surprised but no one uttered the word "pedophile" in this conversation before Mabuse did three posts above.

edited 12th Jul '14 12:19:48 AM by LogoP

Somehow, that doesn't strike me as a particularly important detail here.

It is, because, for the largest part of this conversation, no one used the word "pedophile" and no one was being "pointlessly inflammatory." There wasn't even any tension to speak of. Things were zig-zagging between joking and serious.

Anyway, i'm going to drop this since it's going nowhere.

-edited for civility-

edited 12th Jul '14 1:53:02 AM by LogoP

Pedophilia means being attracted to someone who hasn't entered puberty. If Loras had entered puberty when Renly fisrt started getting the hots for him (not necessarily the same time as when Renly first met him) then Renly is by definition not a pedophile.

Explain the difference between a pedophile and a pederast.

Pedophilia <——> Pederasty.

All things considered, Renly fits the second definition much better. Sandor fits the first.

edited 12th Jul '14 11:41:17 PM by LogoP

OH YAY THE TECHNICAL DEFINITIONS OF PAEDOPHILIA DEBATE AGAIN THAT NEVER GETS OLD HA HA PUN INTENDED.

I'm actually pretty interested in Sansa's arc, in that for all her naivete she's a person who was raised to think that being a good person is all that matters and she's having to rethink that, but apparently (unlike her sister, or most other people who go through the wringer in this series) isn't willing to throw that underlying principle out with the bathwater. She's trying to maintain the important aspects of her upbringing as much as she can while still surviving in her new world, and as a result she's making slow progress, but does seem to be getting there.

That is definitely one of my favorite reasons about Sansa. In a culture when grimdark, ultimate brooding pain reigns supreme. Sansa is coming to terms with the fact that people are not always chivalrous and good but this doesn't cause her to become so jaded that she stops being a good person. She's actively choosing to remain good when she has 4 books of bad things happening to her.

Oh my God. I make a joke about Rhaegar and start off yet another debate about noncing kids. Good thing I didn't say that Septon from Feast, "Filthy" Finbarr Mcfiddly. Then we'd have real problems.

edited 13th Jul '14 8:33:35 AM by Jonny0110