Pokémon anime

@BlastVision: Ok then, to adding back Esoteric Happy Ending as long as we site those interview as proof it was supposed to be happy. Glad we could sort this out.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Apr 1st 2024 at 6:45:46 AM

So, if they feel happier this way, then yeah, that can be brought up for them. Make sure to cite the interview.

I came on here to discuss this because nobody seems to want to say anything.

I think that the Pokemon subpage of Unintentionally Unsympathetic needs a serious cleanup because there is some misuse of the trope, especially with the Iris, Serena and Normal examples. I want to talk about Lillie (and the others) but that's a different topic since I want to get through these characters first.

The UU trope is supposed to be about instances in which an audience doesn't feel sorry for a character in situations in which the characters are supposed to be sympathetic.

The examples about Serena and Iris are just fans complaining about their poorly written portrayals, not fans having no sympathy for them when in situations in which Iris and Serena are supposed to be seen as sympathetic. I’ve watched both seasons of these respective poke girls and I don’t think you were supposed to sympathize and side with Iris when she calls Ash a kid nor were you supposed to sympathize with Serena when it comes to her issues with her mother (especially since Serena has been nothing but respectful towards her mother).

I also wanted to add Norman from the Pokemon Adventures comic. I really don't think he was a sympathetic character nor a character that you are supposed to feel sorry for. He comes off as intentionally unsympathetic rather than unintentionally. That examples needs to be purged too.

To focus on those three, Iris was intentionally written as a Suspiciously Similar Substitute to Misty, but the homage falters because Ash was only reset in intelligence and not meanness, meaning the narrative tries to present Iris as being in the right all the time despite Ash never trying to argue with her. This behavior, however, was changed to being intentional later into the show's run, when it was revealed Iris had an Inferiority Superiority Complex and was deflecting off herself.

Serena's struggles were likewise meant to emulate May's in Hoenn. Seven episodes in, a very short period, this behavior was directly addressed as Serena found herself telling Ash the same things Grace said to her before once she would teach him how to ride. In addition, it's shown that her earlier behavior stemmed from Serena misjudging Rhyhorn as being too unruly, and she would change her mind when the very affectionate herd of Rhyhorn swarm her (something Serena ended up using to win a later Showcase round by allowing the Rhyhorn to approach and lick her willingly).

Norman, well, it's a trickier subject. His abusive behavior may be a holdout from the Darker and Edgier beginnings of earlier chapters of Pokemon Adventures, and the story eventually tries to present the cause of their conflict as an accident. This may stem from the idea that even a mean parent is a flawed person, with Norman sacrificing himself likely being the way the narrative addresses his behavior, with Celebi reviving him seen as the point of forgiveness.

Edited by 6f5e4d on Apr 2nd 2024 at 1:06:23 AM

IDK. I still don't think they are examples. You just basically described Iris and Serena's poorly written aspects of their characters. What you're saying is about characters failing to obtain a certain reaction from the audience, not sympathy.

I believe the Iris and Serena tropes should be put under another trope (I can YKKTW for this). Sure you may think that Iris is "portrayed in the right" (because what you are describing is Jerk Sue, but I can't even put that for her since she has moments in which she is called out on her behavior.

With the Norman one, I think it should be edited to only talk about the times in which his character was supposed to be this sympathetic person.

EDIT: I may be making a seperate trope for this, so I can move Iris and Serena's examples there.

Edited by MsCC22 on Apr 2nd 2024 at 2:21:43 AM

It might not have been very specific, but the idea was that their behavior wasn't unintentional in the end, and they do get put into situations where they are forced to acknowledge that what they did was wrong. They were mean, and the narrative doesn't try to hide it in the end.

Again, what you are saying is an opinion.

Norman's post should stay, but it needs to be edited in a way that only highlights the scene that you were supposed to sympathize with him. I am beginning to think that this trope is only used to complain about how poorly a character is portrayed, not just talking about how the character is supposed to be a sympathetic woobie but they aren't. Even another troper pointed it out here.

While the posts on the UU subpage rightly pointed out how Iris and Serena aren't likable in the way the writers wanted them too, the two aren't seen as sympathetic woobies.

Edited by MsCC22 on Apr 3rd 2024 at 6:11:12 AM

I can see your point. Though what is the separate trope you are hoping to make?

my girl casey has a mustache on the top of her head

I wish, I wish, with all my heart, to fly with dragons in a land apart.

Yeah, that does look kind of funny, her hairstyle does.

By the way, the anime takes a break this week, so that the next arc premieres the following week.

I think it's really cute but that's just me

I wish, I wish, with all my heart, to fly with dragons in a land apart.

Max was recently added to the Base-Breaking Character page, when I thought he was in the limbo of too hated to be Base Breaking but not hated enough to be The Scrappy:

• Max. On one hand, his Bratty Half-Pint personality can be entertaining, and his tendency to call out others on their stupidity is welcome, alongside him being the Hoenn group's designated "stop Brock from flirting" guy, quips and all. However, detractors find his brattiness and smug know-it-all nature rather aggravating, and he tends to be overly harsh towards Ash (and May to a lesser extent). And since he's not a trainer himself, his role in episodes is typically limited besides occasional special focus, and it makes it harder to take his training criticisms seriously when he's chiding Ash about something he himself doesn't have any experience in.

---

Personally I'm a Max fan but I'm just wondering if you guys felt he has enough fans to remain on the page

I think you asked this before and so far people have said that he doesn't appear to be an example (and I agree). Most people at the time either found him annoying or were neutral on him

Macron's notes

I suppose the difference is the AG series is 20 years old now so all the people watching back in the early 2000's are long gone and younger fans don't have much of an opinion. Personally I didn't mind him and liked him in a lot of eps, but the writers clearly ran out of things to do with him pretty early on, and then just started treating him like Brock 2.0. By the time we got into Battle Frontier it felt like the writers just kinda gave up on him, which makes me wonder if the only reason they didn't have him stay at Petalburg after Hoenn ended because they didn't want to change the AG cast at all mid-series.

You basically had to ask this question about 15 years ago. Max hasn't even had a speaking role in the anime since 2006!

Edited by precita on Apr 9th 2024 at 8:46:17 AM

They may not have wanted to change the human cast, but they were willing to change the Pokemon rosters of the main characters at that point instead (with Ash leaving Torkoal and Glalie with Professor Oak and bringing Phanpy back, Brock leaving Ludicolo with his family, and May leaving Beautifly and Skitty in Hoenn, then leaving her Bulbasaur with Ash's own Bulbasaur). Max, given his age, was probably annoying on purpose, but he still played a vital role in using the PokeNav to help the cast get around, which gave him some perks.

Back to Horizons. Are there any Dot fans here? She is probably my favorite character due to her personality and growth and I am so happy she will be traveling with Liko and Roy full time on their adventures in the next arc.

Edited by DS9guy on Apr 10th 2024 at 9:55:26 AM

I think she's alright. As Nidothing, she serves as a way of modernizing the method by which the Fleeting Demographic Rule teaches new audiences about the rules of the franchise, and she has a unique character arc about needing to come out of her shell and better interact with her friends.

Dot definitely feels like the dark horse character of Horizons. She kind of reminds me of Lana in SM for some reason, being the quirky secondary female character that actually feels more interesting than the lead character. Roy is kinda just there to give some boys a character to watch so it doesn't feel like a girly show with Liko as the lead.

He's only in the limbo because not many people are interested in him since AG. I blame it on him having no Pokémon partner. Bonnie has Dedenne and Squishy, so you see artworks of her still (sometimes as an actual trainer). The best you can do is make several polls for the Pokémon fandom and see where Max falls on the popularity scale.

As for Dot, she's the perfect foil for Liko and Roy. She's great and I hope people will refer to Dot as a Tritagonist.

Edited by Shadao on Apr 10th 2024 at 8:15:32 AM

I liked the twist that she was Nidothing all along.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

There's an image online that explains the dynamics behind the three, and the, uh, well, etymology that works, by comparing it to a Nintendo Switch. The first letters of Liko and Roy refer to the L and R controllers for the Switch, and Dot is apparently a Japanese word for pixel, as in, a pixel in a game, to balance the two out.

To use a really old meme, Mind=Blown.

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!

In actual anime news the next arc has begun in Japan.

Also the next batch of Horizons dub episode on Netflix has been dated for May 10. Supposedly it should finish the first arc.

Meanwhile, Ann returns at Naranja Academy, and evolved Oshawott into Dewott. Those who complained about Liko not winning a battle so far may be relieved by Liko defeating Ann. That being said, this may debunk the "Ann is the Explorers' mole" theory since no mention is made of Ann being related to Coral.

And Coral and Ann both appear in the episode (though not at the same time).

Gonna miss that second opening. I like it more than the new one.

Also, Liko, Roy and Dot's seem like they'll probably each be associated with a character from the three storylines of Scarlet and Violet. I already guess that Rakua might be Area Zero, and Dot seems like she'll be the one helping Penny due to similar personalities (she appears in this episode, but doesn't say a word), which leaves Roy dealing with the Path of Legends storyline I suppose.

One Strip! One Strip!