Rational Twilight: Luminosity

Allirea's mother could tell that she was not feeling so hot and had weird food cravings (otherwise she probably wouldn't have survived the pregnancy), but she didn't understand why.

"Allirea is important" isn't the kind of truth that Magic enforces - it's a judgment, not a fact. Elspeth might be able to train herself to verbally state that Allirea exists, since that *is* a fact (e.g. list her among Joham's children) but not to completely ignore the effect.

Ah, well, that explains it. Allirea is Joham first child right? Either way, she turns out quite... good all things considered.

Also, "Didyme-or-Paola" is the focus now, but damn, it sucks to be "John-or-Benito", his daughter is dead, he doesn't even have any hope to find a potential mate any time soon and Benito had a kid, so turning is sort of like making that child even more of a orphan than it already is (and I wouldn't doubt that John would care about that). Poor bastard.

Does polyamoury exist in vampires?

Does polyamoury exist in vampires?

I was thinking something about that, but not related with "multiple matebonds" or any kinda of thing, just... love or sex... I am not sure if vampires are interested in dating, they don't usually seem to be, honestly, the Denali Sisters and Joham are the only that are actually stated as having any sort of sexual relationship outside a mate bond AND half-vampires a unheard by the Volturri (alive for more than 2000 years!)

I've chosen to overlook the possibility of polyamory in vampires because the prospect makes my head hurt. (You're missing a vampire, though: Noemi's kid's dad is a vampire who is not mated to Noemi.) My model of the situation is that vampires can and do experience sexual attraction absent a mate bond, but acting on it will feel completely emotionally hollow; most don't have a taste for that. (Joham might not even have a taste for it; he has other goals in mind.)

I've chosen to overlook the possibility of polyamory in vampires because the prospect makes my head hurt.

My curiosity aside, you are quite right about leaving it out, not only would be very awkward to introduce it to the story it isn't quite... proper thing to discuss...

(You're missing a vampire, though: Noemi's kid's dad is a vampire who is not mated to Noemi.) My model of the situation is that vampires can and do experience sexual attraction absent a mate bond, but acting on it will feel completely emotionally hollow; most don't have a taste for that. (Joham might not even have a taste for it; he has other goals in mind.)

That sounds about right, I guess the Denali Triplets are quite unusual in leaving men alive, Joham, might decided to "try" to actually see if vampire men are infertile (and even might have heard some stories too).

EDIT: Alicorn, what do you think about Twilight? I know you don't like pure bashing, but what exactly you think about the books and it's quality?

edited 24th Feb '11 3:11:45 PM by Bluelantern2814

I unironically enjoy reading the canon books. They contain many flaws, and so require an unusual amount of charity to be enjoyable relative to some other books, but also contain many fine elements, some of which are even well-executed.

There is plenty in them to criticize. Pacing. Word choice. Thematic emphasis. The unfortunate choice to become popular in a low-status demographic such that heaping vitriol on it would become seen as correspondingly high-status.

There's plenty that's *not* in them that people criticize anyway: That they are a screed of Mormon values when they're not. That Bella is presented as both a flawless Mary Sue and as a character with flaws like stupidity, overemotional thought processes, being ruled by her hormones, etc, when that is not logically possible. That Edward and Bella's relationship is all kinds of unhealthy as a role model for humans while ignoring the fact that there is all sorts of supernatural crap flying around. That Meyer's vampires represent a reprehensible departure from "true" vampires when this is goddamn fantasy fiction and it is a *thing that writers do* to *make stuff up*, including the traits of canonical fantasy species.

And there's plenty in them that's worth praising. They are easy, smooth reads, and if you think that's a snap to do, you haven't tried it. Many segments are well-executed (I particularly like the part right after Bella turns in Breaking Dawn and was hard-pressed not to just *lift* it when I did the equivalent). They have a lovely cast of characters if one is willing to read them as they're meant and not as one can most uncharitably choose to pretend they are. They're full of conflicts of all sizes and types, from spats to feuds to wars. They've got the building blocks of some compelling worldbuilding.

I guess I understand, I find the books pretty... dunno, I think if wasn't for the *Sparkle!* no one would give a damn about them, they are sort famous only because of meyer... creative liberties with the myths. I guess the word is "forgetable".

That said, there are bad points, but there are good points, sadly it is "high-status" to critize the entirety of the Twilight-verse, so I can't even comment that I do like somethings about the books without controversy (I find interesting the thing about they losing they memories, how they have traits amplified and Alice)

And I love what you did with the re-imagining of the story. :)

I personally like the characters outside of the two mains. On the one hand, I would love to see a story focusing on someone like Leah or the Volturi. On the other, I'm afraid that the focus would ruin the elements of the characters I liked...

I had this idea (don't even ask me to actually writte it): Bella Secret Agent of the Volturi! AU Bella who joins the Volturi to investigate them and try to destroy them from the inside, with Spy themes

That'd be awesome. Since she's immune to most of the Volturi's abilities, she'd be perfect as a spy.

Exactly! The main problem would be Edward, but I guess she could keep secrecy from him? Or maybe the cullens are rival secrecy organization or something (hey, you can't have double agent with only one agency)

Prompt: Siobhan is leader of La Résistance against the Volterri after they destroyed Ireland (or some other plot point, doesn't matter). Somehow realizing Bella's potential, she turns her and makes her an ally (possibly Charlie, too; in RT, doesn't he have a variation of Bella's shield?). Used as a scout, Bella meets Edward (who, along with Alice and Jasper, has been recruited by the Volterri) and Bella becomes a deep-cover spy at Volterra.

I can't imagine reading another Twilight story without Elspeth. These prompts youre throwing out need to include her... though I have no idea how you would do that.

EDIT: CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

edited 25th Feb '11 1:27:54 AM by AnyaReine

Oh, Siobham as the leader of vampire group, that is bound to be awesome.

What Challenge?

The implied challenge. I'm going to try and write an AU story that includes Siobhán the rebel leader, spy Bella and Elspeth.

edited 25th Feb '11 3:06:18 AM by AnyaReine

Oooooh, awesome. Have no idea how you are going to manage it, but awesome. XD

EDIT: This is from very early in the story, but remember how Elspeth can make friends easily because people like her aura of honesty and trust her by default? Well... is that imoral? She might have no control, but she *is* kinda manipulating them, even if she using complete honesty to do it.

edited 25th Feb '11 3:47:45 AM by Bluelantern2814

I'd say no. Powers are personality-based—it would be sort of like saying Jasper was manipulating people pre-turning because he was quite charismatic. We all have our ways of making friends.

Please note I said pre-turning. Post-turning Jasper has quite a few...less moral options.

Just because they are only words and not a "power", it doesn't mean that they are okay or harmless.

sigh.

I guess I just seeing Elspeth's power in a new light after realizing that she can turn humans in vegetables with a single thought.

EDIT:

Plus, the possibility that she (in theory) can create something similar to the Doll House.

If Vampires's powers are truly personality based and don't require some form of latent magic from they humanselves, they might be able to recreate Aro, blast someone that looks like him with his memories, turn him, and you get a new-Aro, with the mindreading power. Of course, that would be several shades of imoral.

other WMG

In the future, Addy or Elspeth (likely by force) will try to bring the Volturri dead by fiding look-a-likes and blasting them with they memories

edited 25th Feb '11 10:11:08 AM by Bluelantern2814

Elspeth's power is totally a power. The fact that she happens to have a power based on her personality does not mean that it shouldn't be counted as a superhumanoid ability, nor did I intend to imply that. I was trying to draw a parallel between something that I figured you would agree is moral—a charismatic person using that charisma to gain friends.

Jasper could literally force you to enjoy his presence, hence why I said he has an immoral option. Elspeth, on the other hand, just has an aura of, "Yep, I'm telling the truth and have a habit of doing such!"

Really though, that's all opinion-level. I guess I'd like to ask: Do you think Didyme's power is immoral? She and Elspeth have the same level of control, and give about the same effect—it's just that Elspeth could, in theory, stop her power by keeping a vow of silence/lying.

edited 25th Feb '11 12:21:39 PM by RedWren

Do you think Didyme's power is immoral

Honestly? Yeah kinda. I mean, she does cause a artificial mental state in another people, there is of course the fact that she has no level of control beyond choosing go to another place. Is a bit similar like Edward mind reading, who he can't truly surpress.

The thing that makes me doubt about the morality is that she knows that her power cause a indirect change of behavior in people that might not always benefical to them. It isn't anything close to what Chelsea, Priotr, Jasper or Didyme do, but it still something... and I am not sure how *okay* it is. =P

@ Anya Reine: *fist-pump* YES!

As to Elspeth, probably the same deal as when the Cullens turned Bella here. Bella's human eggs get saved, and after the war (or maybe during? if the Volterri ransacked one of Siobhan's hideouts and found a stash. Or if the stash is independent for Bella to do with as she wants) they have Elspeth.

@Bluelantern 8214: And now I want to know what Siobhan was up to during her stay at the Cullens in canon.

@discussion: I think Elspeth's powers are immoral only as she uses them. They require her to tell the truth as much as she uses them to tell what truths she wants people to hear. If she started blasting people on the street with the memory!nuke, though, then I'd think she'd have a problem. I don't really think that just having the power is necessarily immoral, tho.

On another topic, I was wondering about Siobhan and Bella's relationship. Are they friendly? I understand that when we saw them interact Bella was a bit frustrated about having to babysit Allirea, and then Siobhan was a bit frustrated by Bella's need to repeat things. And apparently Siobhan trusts Bella enough that she'd support Bella as Empress Regnant. But I'm not entirely sure what their relationship is.

edited 25th Feb '11 2:22:01 PM by Maridee

@ Anya Reine: *fist-pump* YES!

As to Elspeth, probably the same deal as when the Cullens turned Bella here. Bella's human eggs get saved, and after the war (or maybe during? if the Volterri ransacked one of Siobhan's hideouts and found a stash. Or if the stash is independent for Bella to do with as she wants) they have Elspeth.

Wait, why would Siobhan want to stash Bella's eggs?

@Bluelantern 8214: And now I want to know what Siobhan was up to during her stay at the Cullens in canon.

@discussion: I think Elspeth's powers are immoral only as she uses them. They require her to tell the truth as much as she uses them to tell what truths she wants people to hear. If she started blasting people on the street with the memory!nuke, though, then I'd think she'd have a problem. I don't really think that just having the power is necessarily immoral, tho.

I know that the Memory!nuke (I preffer to think of it as Memory!Gun) can be Less the morally ideal, we are talking about the more "harmless" aspect of Elspeth power

On another topic, I was wondering about Siobhan and Bella's relationship. Are they friendly? I understand that when we saw them interact Bella was a bit frustrated about having to babysit Allirea, and then Siobhan was a bit frustrated by Bella's need to repeat things. And apparently Siobhan trusts Bella enough that she'd support Bella as Empress Regnant. But I'm not entirely sure what their relationship is.

I did felt odd that Sionhan would give such support to Bella so quickly, but I guess she had to work with what she got, and the Rebelion had only 3 likely candidates Carlisle (too idealistic), Sionhan (Great competence, little desire) and Bella who did wanted the position, had a powerful shield and highly unlikely to become EVULZ and try to slave everyone. The main "quirk" of her administration would be that she wouldn't allow siobhan to drink delicious humans again, but the same can be said about Carlisle. So Siobhan options would be rule the world to keep drinking human juice or change her diet and go back to her beloved and peaceful ireland

The memories might affected her opinon as well, and realize that Bella is quite inteligent and logical, Siobhan might even agree that activeting the wolves was the "safer" alternative, despite how everything turn out.

Wait, why would Siobhan want to stash Bella's eggs?

Well, we've seen that the powers are genetic - if you have a power, it's more likely that your kid would have one. Also, it would keep Bella happy.

Don't ask me, never read past the first book. Luminosity made curious about them, but not enough to actually make the effort to buy them.

I borrowed them from my library. Siobhan gets a little description, but not nearly to the extent Alicorn's taken her.

I know that the Memory!nuke (I preffer to think of it as Memory!Gun) can be Less the morally ideal, we are talking about the more "harmless" aspect of Elspeth power

OH. Well, I suppose then the question would be whether or not people like you for you - being honestly you - or for the person they think you are. Yeah, in that case the comparison to charisma is very valid. Truth is truth. What she sends can't really change. I mean, if there were someone out there who's made uncomfortable by truth, they might not like her at all.

I did felt odd that Sionhan would give such support to Bella so quickly, but I guess she had to work with what she got, and the Rebelion had only 3 likely candidates Carlisle (too idealistic), Sionhan (Great competence, little desire) and Bella who did wanted the position, had a powerful shield and highly unlikely to become EVULZ and try to slave everyone. The main "quirk" of her administration would be that she wouldn't allow siobhan to drink delicious humans again, but the same can be said about Carlisle. So Siobhan options would be rule the world to keep drinking human juice or change her diet and go back to her beloved and peaceful ireland

The memories might affected her opinon as well, and realize that Bella is quite inteligent and logical, Siobhan might even agree that activeting the wolves was the "safer" alternative, despite how everything turn out.

That's true. Siobhan would have seen Edward's memories; Aro's memories; Elspeth's memories; Alice's memories - that's kind of a perspective bomb. And with a logical mind, giving up humans would be less important than having a stable, reliable government.

...Unless she were to try and arrange special treatment, as one of Bella's allies...

edited 25th Feb '11 3:45:04 PM by Maridee

Good points. The thing about "carisma" and honesty is that... well, I actually saw this Methods of Rationality, Draco would a true story of himself to sort of manipulate Harry to tell a story about himself, and Draco told him what he was doing. So even honesty can be used for manipulation...

at any rate

...Unless she were to try and arrange special treatment, as one of Bella's allies...

Wouldn't rule out that possibility, but honestly, I think it would be... "safer" to actually backstab Bella or something. Even making a request would make Bella feel that Siobhan is a problem that must be dealt with eventually.