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BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#26: Sep 27th 2010 at 9:54:59 PM

Except they wouldn't be a minority in Israel?

Also, that's retarded. That's a fantastically moronic statement. That's the most incredibly stupid thing I heard all week. I hope you're pleased with yourself.

edited 27th Sep '10 9:55:32 PM by BonSequitur

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Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#28: Sep 27th 2010 at 10:06:03 PM

Essentially, you can extend this argument to say that every state should be ethnically homogenous, because it's a raw deal for any ethnicity to be a minority in a democratic state... therefore, we should kick the Jews out of Germany.

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GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#29: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:23:58 PM

Which is why I said there should be no religion-centred state... at the start of the whole damn argument.

A one state solution that integrates both sides is the only hope of avoiding a bloodbath. Let me make that clear.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Kzickas Since: Apr, 2009
#30: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:25:19 PM

No one has a right to be a majority, nor to rule any area where they are not the majority by virtue of race, nationality or religion no matter which it is.

Also I don't think peace is possible without compromising Israel's identity as a jewish state. There are too many palestinian refugees who gain nothing from any peace that doesn't include the right of return that they will continue supporting groups that attack Israel.

Edit: But the peace negotiations are a farce anyway that aren't even really meant to result in peace so who cares?

edited 27th Sep '10 11:26:40 PM by Kzickas

GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#31: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:30:12 PM

Again, start putting heavy pressure on both sides. Punish every step out of line and reward every step in the right direction.

Make them reconcile even if you have to hold their hand every step of the way.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#32: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:32:03 PM

We could also create a Palestine state in a region that hasn't been inhabited by Palestinians for centuries, and which is currently occupied by another people. Essentially, doing an Israel. I vote for Vermont.

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JethroQWalrustitty OG Troper from Finland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
OG Troper
#33: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:34:13 PM

Do Likud members fire rockets indiscriminately against civilians and hide behind civilians?

They don't need to. All they have to do is increase IDF funding.

Seriously, look at the figures. Who kills more civillians? Who has the manpower, and material advantage? And while both sides kill innocent people, Israel also destroys homes and farms, leaving people without food and shelter.

Last I checked, the Israeli military pretty much outguns all its neighbours put together. Even counting Egypt that isn't openly hostile.

the statement above is false
Kzickas Since: Apr, 2009
#34: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:35:10 PM

So who draws up the plan for what is reasonable, in order to punish those who deviate from it? There are lot's of cases where every option is seen by someone as a violation of their basic rights and I can't think of any group capable of mediating.

I do however think that any international body that were to mediate such a dispute should be strongly biased towards the palestinians. The international community carries a large part of the guilt for the suffering of the palestinians through the establishment of the palestinian mandate and so on. Which I think gives it a responsibility to try to end that suffering.

Edit for clarity: this was a response to Game Chainsaw

edited 27th Sep '10 11:37:36 PM by Kzickas

JethroQWalrustitty OG Troper from Finland Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
OG Troper
#35: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:36:42 PM

Also, Tom, do you think the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict started with hamas shooting rockets? Yeah, that must have been it. The whole was a nest of peace until the 2000's.

the statement above is false
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#36: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:42:59 PM

You condemn any action that obviously seeks to harm the other side. The first thing I'd be doing now is pummelling through existing wrongs. Threaten Israel with the sky falling in if they don't start withdrawing settlements and if they don't get rid of the embargo on all the ridiculous items, but state to the Palestinians that one rocket attack will cause the US to impose its own penalties. Hit both sides with a massive stick until they back off in pain. Of course, you'll need carrots as well, supplies, money, stuff both sides need. And champion the regions security from outsiders so the Israelis feel safe and some of their inherent paranoia dies down... while at the same time, hovering doom over their heads in the form of withdrawn military backing if the Israelis step one toe over the line.

bully, bribe, cajole and barter the two sides back into line. And don't dismiss the task as impossible; you have to start somewhere. Ghandi didn't build his state in a day.

"There is nothing impossible to him who will try."

And hey, any hatred both sides get for you is just a bonus; if they're hating you, they can't hate each other quite so much!

edited 27th Sep '10 11:43:21 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Kzickas Since: Apr, 2009
#37: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:49:43 PM

Meh I don't think would work.

What I think this conflict lacks is some middle ground when it comes to palestinian organizations. Right now the only things that exist are those who want to kill all jews everywhere and those who will bend over backwards if Israel pays lip service to the idea of peace. What we really need is a palestinian organization that can draw up a plan for a just peace and approach Israel and say "this is what peace looks like, you can either work with us to achieve it, or we'll fight you to achieve it" and also one that doesn't think that armed resistance must mean attacking civilians (how come there is not a single palestinian group willing to attack military targets but not civilian targets?)

BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#38: Sep 27th 2010 at 11:51:48 PM

If there is a pattern in the history of human conflict, is that the weaker side will use the uglier tactics. During the Algerian resistance of French rule in the 50's, the French didn't use civilian women to carry bombs; they didn't need to.

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RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#39: Sep 28th 2010 at 12:18:31 AM

Terrorists do not deserve the respect of being called human let alone given a venue to air their grievances.

You might want to read this

edited 28th Sep '10 12:18:43 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Kzickas Since: Apr, 2009
#40: Sep 28th 2010 at 12:22:52 AM

Ethnic cleansers do not deserve the respect of being called human let alone given a venue to air their grievances.

Edit: just to show that you can

edited 28th Sep '10 12:23:07 AM by Kzickas

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#41: Sep 28th 2010 at 12:25:55 AM

Well it's not like the term "human" carries much respect implicity: it used to be a term to denote someone from the rabble. "Vir", from which "virtue" comes, is much more awesome and full of aerté.

@Kzickas: because confronting the IDF head-on is certain death, with not a single kill to compensate for it. Therefore, pointless.

edited 28th Sep '10 5:16:08 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#42: Sep 28th 2010 at 6:40:25 AM

Also, Tom, do you think the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict started with hamas shooting rockets? Yeah, that must have been it. The whole was a nest of peace until the 2000's.

If you want to blame someone concretely for starting the whole Arab Israeli Conflict, look no further than Britain and the UN and fucking up the whole situation in 1947.

Remember Israel was once called the British Mandate Of Palestine. Not American, not Arab.

Israel's neighbors either way at the time would not tolerate a Jewish state regardless of its borders or if it was peaceful or not. The rest fell into play on its own.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#43: Sep 28th 2010 at 9:30:07 AM

Yes, because going back in history really helps. If Britain is guilty of not stopping the situation from unfolding, and may I remind you we lost men during the whole mess, America is at fault for letting it go on unchecked. You cannot deny that Tom.

I'll be blunt; the whole international community has acted like a bunch of cowards on the issue.

edited 28th Sep '10 9:30:43 AM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#44: Sep 28th 2010 at 9:34:30 AM

Which is funny. The whole of Europe like clockwork condemns Israeli "aggression" when they defend themselves but says not a peep about Hamas or Hezbollah launching rockets and conducting suicide bombings.

The international community is obviously not the answer with that kind of blatant bias.

edited 28th Sep '10 9:35:28 AM by MajorTom

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45: Sep 28th 2010 at 9:38:17 AM

Founding Israel was a dumb idea. But whatchagonnado? They're there now. Once you've past a generation or two, you have as much right to live there as anyone else.

GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#46: Sep 28th 2010 at 9:38:36 AM

The smart thing to do would be to undermine both groups of hardliners.

EDIT:^And this is the reason that we must stop more settlers from landing.

edited 28th Sep '10 10:13:39 AM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Kzickas Since: Apr, 2009
#47: Sep 28th 2010 at 10:43:31 AM

I'll accept that they have as much right as anyone else, but not more. Israel needs to accept coexisting with the Palestinians and that means allowing the refugees to return

Oh, and it's the Palestnians who are defending themselves, given that it was Israel that invaded them not the other way around. Defending themselves by totally unacceptable means, but nevertheles defending themselves. And the international community should be biased against Israel. The international community is responsible for the current suffering of the Palestinians through the British mandate and so on and as such has a responsibility to try to end that suffering. As long as Israel will not accept peaceful coexistance with the Palestinians that means opposing Israel

edited 28th Sep '10 10:47:46 AM by Kzickas

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#48: Sep 28th 2010 at 10:54:29 AM

The whole of Europe like clockwork says not a peep about Hamas or Hezbollah launching rockets and conducting suicide bombings.

I gather you haven't watched the news in European media at all anytime in the last DECADES, yes?

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#49: Sep 28th 2010 at 10:54:29 AM

FUCK DOUBLEPOST

edited 28th Sep '10 11:02:44 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50: Sep 28th 2010 at 10:56:08 AM

I'm sorry, but we have to get on your case for the double post now.


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