Type-Moon: Fate/stay night, Tsukihime, and Kara no Kyoukai discussion

The anime gave her bit more to do.

I actually like how the manga managed to integrate elements of UBW into Fate.

Better than the anime from what I understand.

So that's the Fate route taken care of. Even after all this time and having read it at least three other times, that ending is still one of the few things that can almost make me cry. The epilogue, likewise, is beautifully written. Kinoko Nasu is an excellent writer.

Also, I really like Bedivere and really want to see him appear as a Servant. I seriously doubt that he qualifies but I'd want to see it happen anyway.

Anyway, I was contemplating whether I should get all of the Tiger Dojos now or later and I think I'll do it later. So next up is Unlimited Blade Works, the route that easily has the happiest endings.

Why wouldn't Bedivere qualify? He probably wouldn't be that great, but he's almost certainly a Heroic Spirit.

I dunno, I just get the feeling that he wouldn't. After all, he's not very well known since he was a part of King Aurthur's Imperial Guard and thus not, to my knowledge, one of the Knights of the Round Table.

Basically, people would recognize Lancelot and Gawain and Percival but I think most people would be confused if you asked them about Bedivere.

I also have no idea if he would make a contract with the world but he might have done it. It could certainly be used to explain how he was the only one who survived the Battle of Camlann.

Astolfo and Diarmuid both made the Servant cut, and I'd never heard of either of them.

Thing is, King Arthur and Herakles being such famous heroes just means that they're really good, top class heroes and even get a bit of a boost simply from being well known. The fame boost itself doesn't really matter much in the far east, though such as Gilgamesh noted to get next to nothing in Japan. That's a situational thing, such as if Cu Chulainn were summoned in Ireland. Then he'd get a bunch of stuff, including a castle and huge stat boosts.

There are also more average Servants like Diarmuid or even really crappy ones like Nero and Tamamo, the latter of which is basically the weakest Servant there is and only has something like 10% the power of a normal Servant. Hell, nobody even knew Avenger existed until he got summoned.

Also, Bedivere wouldn't need to make a contract with the world. That's for losers who don't have enough power on their own to become heroes. The only confirmed example of someone becoming a heroic spirit like that is very weak.

edited 13th Jul '14 1:21:22 AM by Arha

That makes me wonder something. In India, there are some mythological heroes who are widely beloved in one region but next to unknown in others. Would the fame boost apply to all of India, or do they need to be in the regions where they are well-known?

It probably applies to all of India, but Hindu heroes are so stupidly broken that I can't see it mattering. As in, I look at Karna in Apocrypha and think "Oh, look, they nerfed him."

I thought the requirements for becoming a heroic spirit was to be revered by humanity to the point of becoming like divine spirits or to form a contract with the world. With a few exceptions like King Arthur, it was also stated that heroes became such due to forming a contract with the world. After all, Arturia would not have become a Servant at all if she hadn't done such on her deathbed and subsequently avoided becoming a full heroic spirit by breaking the contract.

EDIT: Also, since when was Tamamo-no-Mae weak? With her Origin Form, she becomes capable of feats like moving faster than light and the reversal of time. She can reduce the distance from the Horsehead Nebula back to the original galaxy to zero to instantly cross the distance. Compared to an A rank Servant, she has nine percent of its power with a single tail. If she were to increase in tails, each one would increase her power exponentially by nine

Of course, the Type Moon wiki then goes on to say she's weak as a Heroic Spirit so there's that.

edited 13th Jul '14 1:35:20 AM by Zelenal

Not really. The requirements for being a Heroic Spirit are kinda vague and I don't want to get into that at the moment, but just note that the ranks of heroic spirits include

1. People that didn't actually exist (I'm told that this includes Medusa)
2. People that weren't human (Tamamo, Medusa, Chiron)
3. People who signed a contract with some nebulous 'world' figure (I don't know if you've gotten to this so I'm naming no names)
4. People who not only weren't superhuman, but didn't actually do anything on their own and whose names have been forgotten (Avenger/"Angra Mainyu")
5. People who were the villain of their story or just villains in general (Medea, Tamamo, Gilles de Rais, Elizabeth Bathory)
6. People that wouldn't even be considered heroes or villains at all but rather just historical figures ^note To be fair, this is limited to Apocrypha and Extra, which are basically fanfiction and an AU with explicitly different rules respectively (Shakespeare, Hans Christian Anderson)
7. People who weren't who people thought they were ("Francis Drake")
8. People who had a legacy identity (Robin Hood, Hassan)

Just being a bit less famous doesn't mean much except that you probably won't be as powerful.

And Tamamo is weak because she generally can't do that stuff. Also, none of that stuff is real. It's all in a giant floating space computer, so its relevance is questionable. Plus, it's not like she can increase her number of tails.

edited 13th Jul '14 1:40:40 AM by Arha

Yeah, the focus of this is the main series so the side material is irrelevant.

Anyway, reading over the page on Heroic Spirits on the TYPE-MOON wiki, I'm still not convinced that he would become a Heroic Spirit. Aside from returning Excalibur to where it came, he didn't seem to do anything to mark him as a hero. He might be, I concede, since it just says that they "are beings that accomplished great achievements such as saving the world and, after their death, became the object of worship and lore."

I'm also not sure if he would have a Noble Phantasm. I went on to his article on the Other Wiki but it was describing someone who did not seem like the Bedivere we saw at the end of Fate so I threw it out the window (for starters, Bedwry only had one hand while Bedivere has two, according to his artwork◊ [it's easier to see his left handfrom the rear◊], and Bedwry also wielded a magic lance while Bedivere is clearly carrying a sword).

The Type Moon wiki is notoriously unreliable. I suggest that you not, well, rely on it too much.

But really, he's almost certainly a Heroic Spirit. Just look at Iskander's Reality Marble or Gilles if you want proof of how easy it is to be a Heroic Spirit. And I wouldn't be surprised if they fudged the details of the legend since King Arthur should actually have about a billion Noble Phantasms yet she only qualifies as the Saber class.

Why is the Type Moon wiki unreliable? Its sources certainly seem reliable and nothing its stated has contradicted what I've learned from the visual novel.

Also, I forgot about Iskander's Reality Marble (how is beyond me) and how each member of his army was also a Heroic Spirit.

edited 13th Jul '14 2:25:54 AM by Zelenal

For one, it tends to steal translations without citing them when correct. Nor do they actually verify the translations. It's also not updated or fact checked the way it should be. If you want the whole story you should probably check Beasts Lair.

I mean, if you just want some basic information I guess it's alright, but you should take what you get there with a grain of salt.

Ah. I actually have an account on Beasts Lair but the TV Tropes fora has me spoiled so I didn't stick around.

EDIT: Correction: I had an account.

Man, Excalibur Proto looks so badass. It also actually looks like something that would require Invisible Air. Excalibur looks so plain that, unless it has an aura about it due to its nature, Invisible Air seems a bit like overkill (well, in the terms of hiding her identity. It's awesome yet practical otherwise).

edited 13th Jul '14 2:29:47 AM by Zelenal

Shirou is able to recognize some pretty obscure Noble Phantasms by sight alone even though he hasn't been preparing for the Grail War like any proper competitor would. Presumably weaponry like that is very well recorded in the right circles.

From an out of story perspective, shrug, doesn't seem like they needed to bother.

edited 13th Jul '14 2:30:30 AM by Arha

I thought it was Unlimited Blade Works that allowed him to do that.

I don't think so. He identifies Gilgamesh based on the fact that all sorts of stuff belonging to other heroes came spilling out of the Gate of Babylon even though he hadn't acquired UBW yet.

He didn't? I was under the impression that Shirou almost always had UBW (at least after his Origin became Sword) and he just simply didn't know of its existence. After all, if he didn't have it lowering the cost of Gradation Air then projecting Caliburn should have at least left him unable to use one arm (unless that was Avalon's doing). There's also the fact the said scene is called "And Thus I Pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

edited 13th Jul '14 2:44:18 AM by Zelenal

Archer says he's using it wrong.

Huh? When? In the UBW route? Also, how does that change whether or not he has it in the first place?

UBW at some point, I think. He's using Projection like it was a standalone skill.

Anyway, I can't say for sure that you're wrong since I'm not exactly a super expert, but I think the fact that Tohsaka recognized a fair number of the weapons herself kind of points to the idea that there are simply a lot of easily recognized weapons.

Well, I'll be rereading UBW soon enough so I guess I'll learn then. There are also several things regarding the function and existence of UBW that I'm not too sure about.

Shirou has UBW because both his Origin and Element are Sword and something about his ideals (which is why the second half of his poem is different from EMIYA's and why I think he can't access his own UBW in Heaven's Feel), right?

EDIT: Oh! Shirou can only gain the skill of the original wielder of the weapon he projects due to UBW, right? Then he has to have it in the Fate route since he often described Caliburn as acting on its own.

edited 13th Jul '14 3:43:07 AM by Zelenal

It was mentioned in Apocrypha that the Round Table piece that Kairi used to summon Mordred can be used as a catalyst to summon any of the Round Table (including Arthur and Lancelot, who also have separate catalysts). I don't recall if Bedivere was explicitly mentioned, but I don't know why he wouldn't be included in that.

edited 13th Jul '14 5:59:04 AM by Otherarrow