Type-Moon: Fate/stay night, Tsukihime, and Kara no Kyoukai discussion

So I've been having some pretty strange dreams lately. The one I had last night involved Kiritsugu and Saber investigating a Hercule Poirot-esque murder mystery (but perhaps a bit more brutal). I think something from The Matrix may have made its way in there as well but I'm not entirely sure.

edited 9th Jul '14 11:08:04 AM by Zelenal

...I'd watch that.

It would be something else, that's for certain.

Anyway, I absolutely love the scene "VS Berserker - And Thus I Pray, Unlimited Blade Works" (the scene where Shirou projects Caliburn). Seriously, I mean the dude manages to cut off Berserker's arm and then repel several of his attacks before killing him with Saber's help. How anyone can look upon that and call the guy anything other than badass is beyond me.

Oh yeah this scene is awesome. Pretty much the high point of Shirou badassery.

I thought the high point was him using Nine Lives Blade Works against Dark Heracles, aka the Kuzu Ryū Sen.

I thought his high point was taking on Saber Alter by himself and winning. Even if it cost him his life. However, that or that one scene with Gilgamesh (you know the one) are easily his high points in the Fate route.

Anyway, speaking of which, although she was only operating within the bounds of her knowledge, Rin telling Shirou to forget about Gradation Air was the worst possible advice she could give him. Same for Kiritsugu, really.

Wait a minute, people think Shirou isn't a badass? Just look at the CMOA he had in the series and in one possible future, he becomes Archer in a possible future.

Actually, he becomes (or at least can become) Heroic Spirit EMIYA after both the Fate and Unlimited Blade Works routes. It was originally believed that the Fate route was the path EMIYA took in life but the Final Episode (or chapter or whatever) proved that wrong. However, it's reasonable to assume that whatever EMIYA did during his Fifth Holy Grail War, it was probably similar to the Fate route.

Anyway, I brought up Shirou being badass because there are people that complain about the way Shirou acts during the Fate route.

EDIT: Actually, never mind. Shirou can become similar to Heroic Spirit EMIYA but he cannot become him at all in any route. Some time after the Fate and UBW routes, Rin and Lord El-Melloi II (Waver Velvet) dismantle the Greater Grail and thus bring an end to the Holy Grail War and the Greater Grail is destroyed at the end of Heaven's Feel, I do believe.

EDIT 2: Well... I suppose he could still become a Counter Guardian or Heroic Spirit, since the Holy Grail has nothing to do with either of those. Hmm.

The Nasu verse is complicated.

edited 9th Jul '14 11:50:27 PM by Zelenal

My favorite Shirou scene in Fate was him resisting Kotomine's temptations near the end to use the grail to try and bring everyone back.

Also, on fight scenes, can we all agree that Kotomine vs. Shirou the Hedgehog is the best one?

edited 10th Jul '14 4:42:28 AM by tvsgood

Mine was when he punched Rin's dagger in Kotomine's chest.

Hmm, that one kinda lost its coolness since you find out later that Kotomine has awesome fighting skills that he wasn't using at all because lolNasu.

That happens a lot though, for one reason or another. Kotomine wasn't using those skills cause with his control of the Grail, he likely didn't think he needed them, and dropped his guard.

My favourite moment by the way, is a tie between Sparks Liner High (Shirou vs Saber Alter), and Shirou overcoming the Grail Mud (and thereby, all the evils of the world), which is what led to the knife punching scene. Kotomine never saw it coming.

Yes. I refuse to call Sparks Liner High a Bad End. Rather, I call it a Badass End.

Ya know, I just realized that Shirou has the power to perfectly project Avalon in every route. After all, the reason he could do so in the Fate route never changed in the other two. I'm also curious as to whether Shirou's projected version would be useable without Saber being around. It should, in theory at least, but I'm not too sure. I guess he never used it in the other routes due to never learning of its existence.

Still, that gives post-Fate!Shirou a very powerful trump card to use. Since he probably helped out Rin, I could see him using it to save their asses at least once.

He could do it in UBW if he knew it was there but no in HF.

Oh yeah, I seem to recall something saying that he lost it early on in HF. I have yet to actually read that route, though.

EDIT: Actually, would that really stop him from projecting it if he saw it? After all, the reason he could project it perfectly didn't change and he didn't actually have it when he used it at the end of the Fate route so that had to be Gradation Air.

edited 10th Jul '14 12:03:40 PM by Zelenal

He can only project it while he has contract with Saber. This is why Archer never uses it and considers Rho Aias his best defense.

Ah, I see.

So he couldn't use it at the end of UBW either since Caster broke his contract with Saber. Oh well.

Yeah.

Though I believe it still provides him indirect protection.

He still survives a lot of things that should have killed him a hundred times over in both UBW and HF. That's Avalon still healing him.

You know, hearing Saber talk about how she perceived Kiritsugu during the 4th Holy Grail War is very interesting given just how wrong she was in some aspects. Of course, there was also the contradiction of her saying that Kiritsugu only talked to her three times during the war but whatever.

I haven't finished Fate/Zero but I really like Kiritsugu. There's a very obvious split between how he acts when he's being a magus and how he acts when he's being himself (much like Rin but to an even greater degree) and it seems like those two sides frequently conflict. He's quite possibly my favorite non-Servant character in this series.

To be fair, him being ice cold to her at every opportunity might have coloured her perception of him.

In addition, every thing important she learned about Kiritsugu that wasn't about what a ruthless bastard he could be was second hand.

Even learning what a descent person he was came through Shirou's memories rather than seeing it for herself.

Yeah, I know.

So here's a question: How in the world did Rin keep Saber around for the Good End of the UBW route? It's impossible (at least according to Kotomine) to keep a Servant without the Holy Grail and Saber destroyed it. Or was what she destroyed similar to the Holy Grail but not exactly it?

Kerry was an asshole.

And she simply kept her by keeping the contract with her. There's no particular trick to it.

I think they added Iri to Fate/Zero solely so Kerry doesn't have to talk to Saber, keeping with Saber's "he only talked to me so many times" thing in FSN.

For a "pragmatic professional" Kerry's attitude towards Saber was incredibly childish and counterproductive.

x3 So what Kotomine was saying was a lie (no real surprise if it was)?