The Legend Of Zelda - General Thread

I'm afraid that's probably going to be the case.

First of all, Nintendo put a lot of time and effort into creating the game's engine; I imagine they still want to get some use out of it.

Secondly, Bot W is the first Zelda in a long time to actually appeal to people outside the core Zelda fanbase. Among the general gaming community it was a commonly held opinion that Zelda had been on the decline since about Twilight Princess and a lot of people didn't really like Skyward Sword. I'm not saying you have to agree with that, but it was there and honestly I myself kinda felt that way. When combined with how financially successful and critically-well received the game has been it makes sense to keep iterating on that for at least a few more games.

It sucks for hardcore zelda fans or people who don't like open world games but I think we'll be seeing it for a while.

We already know the next Zelda game will use the same engine but that doesn't mean it'll be the same style of game. I really hope the next one returns to a more linear structure because that's simply the only way to have a strong core narrative and Zelda was getting pretty damn good at those. While the Zora Quest may be my favorite sequence in any Zelda game and just one of my favorite sequences in any story period because of how much it made me feel for the characters and world and all the epiphanies it hit me with, it's also just one small part of the whole and the other three aren't really anything to talk about.

I wouldn't say that it was personally, Skyward Sword was just ok and before that Twilight Princess was really underwhelming.

I will stand by my belief that the franchise needed Breath Of The Wild. It needed that openness badly. And I think it's going to be hard to turn away from it.

I certainly wouldn't mind following titles to have a bit more structure, and more depth (literally; subterranean and submarine environments please).

And if they want to go back to a more level-based style, I'd love to see a retooled approach to that old Ocarina Of Time concept of having the game take place entirely inside Ganon's Castle. Minding that this was after Super Mario 64 and it's paintings, and I'd rather see a larger, continuous environment.

edited 2nd Oct '17 11:10:31 PM by Eschaton

Like I said, I will admit it's at least better than Skyward Sword.

edited 2nd Oct '17 11:16:19 PM by FireCrawler2002

Except BOTW actually told a really cohesive and rather strong story despite how disjointed it was. It added to the gameplay when you were directly put into Link's shoes in finding out wtf happened so long ago, and you're trying to fit everything together like he is as you get bits and pieces of his memories back (in an excellent move of Gameplay and Story Integration).

Now I won't disagree that Mipha's story is one of the strongest parts of the narrative, but the other parts weren't bad.

In any case it's possible to tell a solid story and have a good narrative without it being linear (just look at Baccano! for another example) and BOTW definitely accomplishes that.

tl;dr: a linear story isnt the only way to have a strong narrative

edited 2nd Oct '17 11:11:17 PM by EpicBleye

That's basically what I've said I wanted for a while now, personally (the whole Castlevania pitch).

I believe they did say they want to expand on what Breath of the Wild did for the next game after it released..

For the love god I hope they bring back sailing. I had enough jury-rigging my way along the coast with Korok leaf and a raft to get all those treasure chests, thanks.

Wind Waker is still arguably the best 3D Zelda, though, and shows that a combination of the two styles would probably work the best. The perfect 3D Zelda would probably have an overworld like Breath of the Wild's, but the general gameplay (With the climbing mechanic of Breath of the Wild also included, just made so it doesn't work in dungeons except for ledges and certain surfaces), style, charm, feel and tone of Wind Waker, as well as the dungeons, varied enemies and bosses, actual story progression, a Ganon who isn't just a speechless abomination and soundtrack like other 3D Zeldas.

edited 2nd Oct '17 11:49:54 PM by FireCrawler2002

@Zelenal I recall pulling the master sword, and the king of red lions saying "you should talk to the people living on the islands".

The game just didn't grab me that much. But maybe I'm just anti-nostalgia games: I don't like Chrono Trigger, FFVI or FFVII either.

x6 Except it doesn't. It has a strong backstory, yes, but that backstory isn't the game's main story. It's a side quest. The game's main story is just the four quests and the Ganon battle and even those quests are optional. The narrative doesn't build up to anything. No major revelation about Link's past, no surprising twist about current events, it doesn't even really build up to the fight with Ganon. The player builds up to that fight, yes, but not the narrative.

The game's main narrative is "Link wakes up after 100 years. Go to Hyrule Castle and kill Ganon whenever you feel like it." That's it. I've just summed up the entire plot of the game in two sentences and you're not really missing anything. Even when including the quests, aside from the Zora one which is really powerful since it ties heavily into the game's backstory and especially Link's backstory (seriously, this may be the most we know about any Link's past), the others just exist. You have a descendant of Daruk who's kind of annoying and just exists, there's the leader of the Gerudo who you don't actually need but she won't just give you the helmet because she's an idiot, and then there's the guy from the Rito who just exists and has no significance to anything. All three of them are really forgettable (well, infiltrating the Yiga Clan hideout is pretty neat but that's a gameplay thing more than a narrative thing) and don't really serve to do anything or even reveal more about the backstory or the current world. They just exist.

So yeah, no, BotW has the worst narrative of any Zelda game except the first two. The only thing that stops it from being garbage is the Zora Quest.

I don't remember that. If you just got the Master Sword then you should be headed towards Forsaken Fortress.

edited 2nd Oct '17 11:33:55 PM by Zelenal

Just because it isn't mandatory doesn't make it not story. It's still an aspect of the game to explore and learn about. Yes, the story is 'link wakes up after 100 years and needs to fight ganon'. The story is also 'link wakes up after 100 years and learns about how Hyrule has changed in the last 100 years and tries to figure out his past and remember what happened before he fell asleep if he wants to save the kingdom. in doing so he meets descendents of his previous allies and sees the effects that losing his friends had on the various parts of hyrule as well as remembering what they had been through'.

Both are apt descriptions of the story of the game. You just chose the simplest description possible, just like I can describe OOT as 'Link wakes up and gets a fairy. He has to defeat Ganon to save Hyrule.'

You're also vastly underselling the other champions' role in the story. The rito one, to mention, is about Link overcoming obstacles in his relationship with one of the champions because they don't view him as worthy.

edited 2nd Oct '17 11:42:12 PM by EpicBleye

While I disagree about soundtrack, when it comes to tone and feel, it's just a matter of taste. I love both Wind Waker and Breath of the Wild, radically different as they may be.

I look at it as the exact opposite: the backstory is the main story. If anything, the Divine Beasts are the sidequests. And the narrative of the Memories builds up to saving Zelda (not exactly breaking new ground there, admittedly), and that's where all the character development is as well. However, getting the final Memory requires already going inside Hyrule Castle, which undermines the narrative a bit, since you're already mere steps away from saving the princess, and then you have to leave and come back if you want to finish that quest first. And you're probably not intended to have all the memories the first time you do it, but it still leaves that minor issue.

edited 3rd Oct '17 12:42:17 AM by Eschaton

I don't have an opinion on Bot W's writing since I haven't experienced the game, but I don't really have a problem with parts of the story being optional and something you need work for. IMO, you could make an argument that it's a format better suited to storytelling in videogame than the way most games do it, the idea that a game needs a linear core story told mostly through cutscenes is restrictive. What matters is if the actual writing of those story bits you get is good or not and whether the experience by which you come across those story bits is immersive and engaging.

edited 2nd Oct '17 11:51:38 PM by Draghinazzo

@Bleye: Again, that's not the main narrative. Finding out about Link's past and all that is a sidequest and is never the focus of the game. The focus of the game is always "Explore Hyrule and defeat Ganon." That's really all there is to the main story. Yes, you can similarly sum up OoT but then you'd be skipping over a lot of important plot details like Ganondof getting access to the Triforce of Power and taking over Hyrule, the seven-year time skip, the Seven Sages, and all of the Shiek stuff. Meanwhile, in BotW, you're skipping over... nothing. Because that's all there is.

Hell, your description is factually wrong at parts. To my knowledge, there's only one descendant of the Champions. The other three important characters are Mipha's brother, the leader of the Gerudo, and some random guy who's just a determinator. We also don't see what effect losing the Champions had on anyone other than the Zoras since no one else remembers them and they just have legends.

Speaking of the random guy, I also call BS on your description of the Rito Quest. That random guy says Link isn't good enough, you complete one ridiculously easy minigame, and then you're fine and dandy. It's quick, it's boring, and the only interesting part is one line that confirms that Link's focus ability is something he has in the story and not just in gameplay. Despite my absolute love for the Rito, the Rito Quest is the absolute worst one in the game because it's completely disconnected from backstory in every possible way. If something in this game isn't connected to the backstory then it's really boring and meaningless. You want a good "Prove your worth" trial from the Zelda game? The Tower of the Gods from The Wind Waker. Hell, the entirety of The Wind Waker is about Link proving his worth.

The backstory is incredibly fascinating, yes, but it's not the main narrative. You could cut it out and the game would suffer but the story would be exactly the same.

I think its rather disingenuous to just say "Its a sidequest it doesn't count to the main story."

Side quests can elaborate on the main story and make the main story better but that doesn't mean they are the main story. For as great as they are, none of the side quests in Majora's Mask are the game's main story. The game's main story is about Skull Kid, the Four Giants, and Majora with other necessary parts of the game serving to further the game's overarching themes.

The narrative structure of the game is non traditional, saying the memories aren't part of the main quest (Which they are according to the journal right in the Main Quest section) really feels like a weasely way of trying to put down the non linear approach to the story by denying a huge portion of the actual story.

I will grant you that the game lists the memory quests as a main one and thus should be counted as a part of the main narrative. That being said, that doesn't change the fact that three of the four Divine Beast quests are incredibly dull narratively (and one is incredibly dull from a gameplay perspective as well) and that the game's open nature means it has no narrative structure. While discovering all of the memories and learning everything that happened 100 years ago was certainly fun, it also had no emotional impact. The scene of Link and Zelda fleeing Hyrule Castle and Zelda collapsing in tears was one of the first that I got and thus it had no real emotional impact because it had no proper buildup.

Compare this with the Zora Quest which, to me, is one of the most emotionally impactful story bits in all of Zelda (and all of gaming, really). The Zora Quest, if played as intended has an actual narrative structure and thus various events get proper buildup so they can actually be impactful. The meeting with the Zora at that lake, the meeting with Sidon on the bridge, the journey to Zora's Domain during the constant storm, the respite at the Domain itself, the full realization of the impact these last 100 years had, seeing the impact that Link's amnesia has as he doesn't recognize important people from his childhood, receiving the Zora Tunic and learning all of its implications, the memory of Mipha (which is heartbreaking in context), the journey to Shatterback Point, the challenge of collect the Shock Arrows under the watch of the Lynel, the assault on Vah Ruta (the best portion of the game, no contest), the entirety of the dungeon (even if I hate their designs, it works great narratively), the fight with Waterblight Ganon that killed Mipha 100 years ago, being reunited with Mipha's spirit and receiving her blessing (again, heartbreaking in context); all of that is expertly crafted and only works because of its relative linearity (it also helps that this is usually the first one done). There's absolutely nothing else like this in the entire game because only the Goron Quest follows any real structure (the Gerudo Quest kinda does but it's barely existant) and it's pretty boring narratively because it's not really playing to anything or giving a proper buildup to any event.

So, while what BotW did is fine, I really don't want to see future Zelda games follow that "structure" because having no structure only hurts the narrative. I fully believe that, if you had to get the memories in numerical order and they were periodically unlocked over the course of the game, it'd work much better as a story.

I think the memories are a good part of the story and shouldn't be treated as just a sidequest, but putting one in Hyrule Castle is counterintuitive.

Starting the Great Bay temple in Majora's Mask.

Gonna be an interesting trip. I can't remember if this one was more or less fun than the Ocean Temple in Ocarina or not.

I actually found the Ocean Temple more frustrating then the water temple,especially the boss

Ah yes. I had trouble figuring out the Boss myself.

I eventually decided on shooting him when he jumped out of the water (while I was on the platform) then jumping in and attacking him as a Zora when he was stunned.

The Great Bay Temple is a water dungeon done right. It's nowhere near as confusing as people say if you just follow the pipes.

Also MM3D redid the boss fight into something much better.

edited 3rd Oct '17 2:46:43 PM by asterism