yeah that too
at some point i just felt i was going in circles rather than going "is this room really what it looks like?"
Red Spade, Black Heart
The first time I played Ocarina of Time, I thought the Forest Temple was harder than the Water Temple. I have no idea why. I remember beating the Water Temple pretty handily in one sitting but wandering frustrated for hours in the Forest Temple.
Of course, now the Forest Temple is one of my absolute favorite parts of the game, second only to the Spirit Temple (which I still think is the best dungeon in the whole dang series).
edited 29th Apr '17 11:53:26 PM by ThriceCharming
Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
The other thing about the Water Temple, as was alluded to earlier, is that it's the only dungeon in OoT that lacks a clear reason for existing beyond giving Link a place to do adventuring. While there are plenty of other dungeons like that in the series, the fact that OoT otherwise avoids that means it sticks out.
Formerly G.G.
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I actually a similar question about the OOT dungeons on Gamefaqs and I will try to find it when I can.
I mean, that experience can easily vary depending on a variety of factors. I can see things going a lot differently if you happened to see and memorize a hint towards a key in one of the earlier sections so you knew to return to it, or if you missed it and then spent hours wandering about because you were almost done with the dungeon but had to realize you're one key short. I mean, the compass is a thing. But just in principle, a non-linear dungeon like that can end up being frustrating if it fails to appropriately direct your focus. Excessive linearity can be boring because your focus only goes straight forward, but non-linearity can feel frustrating if you can't properly focus on anything at all.
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With the compass being a thing, I never really thought there was that much need to keep checking rooms. There's very few keys in the game not inside a chest, and the compass lets you know if you've found all the chest. I never thought the dungeon was that bad if you remember where all the water level panels are and think about how water levels would affect a given room. The part of the Water Temple I disliked were the rooms with fast water currents, and those are in the linear section of the dungeon around the Longshot.
You know what, I've noticed that all of the good 3D dungeons in the series involve changing the entire dungeon in some way (Water Temple, every dungeon in MM, Sandship, Divine Beasts).
Is it really not possible to make a good 3D dungeons without that? All they need to do is just have you find a key in one end of the dungeon and make you think where to use it by putting the lock at the other end. Most 2D dungeons in the series are that way (at least up to MC).
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You're still assuming that there is some kind of consensus on what is or is not a good 3D dungeon.
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Maybe the change some people have felt between 2D and 3D dungeons has to do with how 2D space and 3D space feel and developers reacting to that, if that makes any sense.
Like I'd say that traveling from one end of a dungeon to another in a 2D game doesn't feel like it takes as long as doing so in a 3D game's dungeon. Maybe this isn't just the 2D and 3D itself, but also has to do with 3D dungeons having more rooms with complicated obstacles to get through, which makes backtracking through that room slower. So the developers usually design things so you don't need to travel too far between "keys" and "locks", and place shortcuts between areas when they'd be too long. Which can cause some people to feel like the dungeons are now too linear.
The exception is when they make 3D dungeons with a gimmick involving the whole dungeon changing. Probably they don't think it's much of a problem to have more backtracking in dungeons like these, because the gimmick changes all the rooms so significantly that you're not just simply backtracking through old stuff. It's almost like exploring new rooms. And so these dungeon morphing gimmicks both make the dungeon feel less linear, but also adds the challenge of needing to think about how the switches will affect other rooms in the dungeon and how to go about changing things to get to where you want. 2D dungeons don't usually have gimmicks like these, because of a lot of the ideas for this sort of thing don't work as well when you're not in a 3D space. Like I found Jabu-Jabu and its water level mechanics from Oracle of Ages to be more frustrating than the Water Temple since it's harder to understand how lowering the raising the water will affect things in this 2D environment (doesn't help the swimming mechanics in OoA were annoying).
2D and 3D games are extremely different in more ways than one would immediately expect, yeah. There's a reason Ocarina of Time is so extremely different from Link to the Past. With the 2D top-down view, you can see everything around your character at the same time, which allows for more enemies, more aggressive enemies, and in many ways more complex puzzles than a 3D environment in which the camera only ever shows you a very small part of what's going on around you. 2D is also an environment overall more open to stylization and simplification than 3D, which is one reason why 2D Links control more tightly and can just slash their sword in the same arc a thousand times a minute, whereas 3D Links have to move more floatily because the 3D world entails expectations as to what the physics of a 3D world should be like based on our own.
... where was I going with this
... Bottom line is, yeah, what Hime said. The transforming dungeon fully realizes the potential of 3D. Meanwhile 2D titles are more action-oriented, more compact and more tightly-controlled, so when you're backtracking, you're probably still fighting a bunch of enemies and dodging traps and whatnot, while 3D titles are more ponderous and atmospheric, but backtracking without any interesting twists could quickly grow tedious.
I wonder, would a 3D dungeon where obstacles don't reset and still pose a hazard work?
I imagine that it would work like one of my favorite levels from Yoshis Island, Marching Milde's Fort
, except once you get a key, you need to fight your way back out of the hallway.
I'm not sure what you mean. Like, any enemies you killed and traps you disarmed would remain so, but it's supposed to still be interesting to backtrack through it? I mean, that could work with a case like Phantom Hourglass's Big Keys or like in the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess, where you have to make your way back with a new restriction that forces you to approach things differently.
Meanwhile, another Breath of the Wild question: Is there a cap on stat boosts? I'd test it myself, but I can't think of a good (that is, not super-annoying) way to test it. Like, the weather-resistant clothes only show you two bars under the relevant icon, and two of them seem to be enough for any situation, so it seems like that's a hard limit on weather resistance. So is it the same for stat boosts like stealth going up to level 3? There were one or two situations where I wanted to avoid getting spotted so much that I wore my entire ninja outfit and downed some stealth-boosters, but it's hard to tell if those made any difference anymore.
"In distress", my ass.
If you have all three pieces of the stealth armor equipped, the potions are superfluous.
All your safe space are belong to Trump
Maybe they can make it so that the puzzles aren't "use item on target to disable obstacle/open door" and more "be aware of your surroundings in combat or else you will get hurt."
And before you say that 3D camera makes this too awkward, the Soulsborne series has already proved it's possible in 3D to have combat surrounded by harmful obstacles.
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idea
max fast potion + fully upgraded shieka armor in the night
how fast
The Cat Knows Where It's At
The Soulsborne series also has one of the worst cameras in recent history (as far as major titles are concerned) so your point is kind of self defeating.
edited 1st May '17 9:09:13 AM by Zelenal
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No, that's an intentional decision by the developers.
Focusing on a single enemy would logically cause you to lose track of other enemies and terrain hazards in real life, and Soulsborne reflects that.
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The larger enemies, especially the dragons and the Capra demon from DS 1 would prove otherwise. The camera actually makes it even harder to track the boss, and you're better off just trying to manually follow them instead.
The Cat Knows Where It's At
>the camera being bad is intentional
if capra demon was intentional then miyazaki is a hack
edited 1st May '17 10:18:45 AM by Trip
Well, in any case, since Zelda's polish is much greater than most other games for better or worse, incorporating dodging hazards into combat won't be as frustrating as in Soulsborne for some people.
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The Cat Knows Where It's At
What hazards? While I've admittedly only played Dark Souls III (although I have watched complete playthroughs of the first game, most of the second, and all of Bloodborne), there weren't that many environmental hazards where you'd actually want to stay and fight. When they come up, you generally just want to book it to the next safe area and fight there. The worst thing I can think of is making sure you don't accidentally roll off a cliff to your doom but that level of situational awareness doesn't really affect much.
No, aside from the enemies, what you're fighting the most in those games is either the horrid camera- especially in boss fights where it'll get you killed more than anything else- or the shoddy lock-on that gets progressively worse with each game.
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He's probably talking about Sen's Fortress from DS 1, that place had a ton of traps and environmental hazards.
I mean, the Water Temple isn't big enough to really be interesting on the exploration front. But the problem isn't being non-linear, it's that it's full of backtracking- you realized you missed a chest somewhere but can't access it because the water level's different? Have fun re-doing half the dungeon.
edited 29th Apr '17 9:16:19 PM by Gilphon