Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
RIP Toriyama
I again like the Caldicott image that Passing Through recommended btw, and more votes would be appreciated.
Tbh I have my issues with Punchinello for heinousness and presentation but let's see a rewrite and I'll go from there.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 24th 2024 at 4:20:21 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thanks! I was hoping more people would weigh in on John Stevenson/Jack the Ripper.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, and yes to the image.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ok, going to bring this up
Not asking for a cut but I would like to bring to your attention some concerns I have over Sosuke Aizen from Bleach
I am well aware he has been discussed before on this site however I do not believe these factors were ever properly addressed
The first of my concerns has to do with Ichigo's assessment of Aizen after their final fight.
He claims that Aizen did not lose his power because the power rejected him but rather because he actually wanted to lose. He backs this up by saying he could feel the loneliness in him when they clashed and implies that due to Aizen being so much stronger then everyone that he might have just wanted someone to reach the same heights as him.
Now while it has been addressed before that this clashes with his arrogant character I have heard some people say Ichigo was wrong on this thread. My issue is not only is this backed up with what he felt in Aizen's sword but I have to question why the story bothered to try and paint Aizen in a somewhat more sympathetic light just after his defeat.
My other issue has to do with his involvement in the last arc. Aizen teams up with Ichigo to defeat Ywach in an Enemy of my enemy situation. However during this Aizen actually genuinely compliments Ichigo for adapting to Complete Hypnosis to land a hit on him and after he gets sealed back up we find out he actually opposes the idea of Ywach creating a world without fear of death because then people will not search for help or gain in his words "courage" and during this, the scene flashes to Ichigo in the present indicating he is thinking about him as an example.
My issue is not only is this implying he had reasons for opposing Ywach beyond his typical "no one controls me" policy but that he actually has some respect for Ichigo post defeat. I am not saying this as grounds to cut him but I would really appreciate some people who have read Bleach to give their input and explain this better
I'm uh... not feeling Aizen going if it's just a feeling. Plenty of approved examples have hints that if things were different they MIGHT be decent people. That feels more like Sympathy for the Devil which is NOT disqualifying. Now if the author addressed that Aizen was lonely then said Then Let Me Be Evil to bullies which turned into the world I could see that being a decent FE but as it stands, I'm inclined to lean keep on him for now. Assuming Bleach is still going we need to keep an eye on him, but provided its over, yeah I think it's not mitigating. The Villain Respect could very well be Blood Knight tendencies and as far as I know, liking someone for their power isn't disqualifying.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 24th 2024 at 6:18:22 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Plus, Aizen's smugness during his subsequent trial raises the possibility that his Villainous Breakdown was all just an act. After all, Urahara and Ichigo assumed that the Hōgyoku had rejected Aizen and that he'd been Brought Down to Normal, but the Thousand-Year Blood War disproved that by revealing that Aizen is still fused to the Hōgyoku and is more powerful than ever.
I’m no Bleach expert and I’m interested to see how this plays out but I do think if the narrative seems to be hinting at a feeling of loneliness, want for companionship and later having the villain rejecting the plot of the next arc’s Big Bad it warrants discussion if we haven’t already had one on these points. We could have just as easily said Makishima just acted like Choe’s friend, was just surprised to see him die and wanted to be remembered forever by Kogami for his own selfish desire to be defined but it ignores the way in which the character conducts himself in the scenes I listed in my concerns so it’s not necessarily just a “feeling” when these worries are brought forth. Just wanna make sure the thread is open for a healthy discussion.
There is no way he faked that breakdown
That does not make any sense
The cool headed Aizen flips out and gets sealed because he lost access to his powers just when he was about to kill Ichigo
Why would he fake his defeat?
And it already fused to him before the final arc
Klavice dismissing the respect thing as blood knight tendency seems ill advised
I pointed out part of that was him admiring his courage and he has no reason to compliment Ichigo during that moment other then being geuine
Plus blood knight does not apply because they were working together during that scene
Edited by YorkobeShounen on Apr 24th 2024 at 6:36:08 AM
CMIIW but looking at the panel it seems to indicate that both Aizen and Ichigo say “Courage” together when the former is talking down to Yhwach, that seems to imply some kind of learned respect for the hero’s ideals.
I am also taking issue with how he seems to genuinely see the lack of hope and courage in the villain he just helped defeats world as a bad thing
Especially when before it seemed like he only was oppressed because he just didn’t want anyone to control him
Also my issue with the loneliness scene is that it’s a attempt to pain him in a more human light which is a bit suspect
although it’s worth noting they don’t say it together but it does flash to Ichigo when he says it indicating he is thinking of him
Edited by YorkobeShounen on Apr 24th 2024 at 6:45:15 AM
Yeaaaaah… that gives me serious pause. We might be running into the whole Orochimaru issue of what happens with shounen villains when they’re stint as the bad guy ends and they end up joining the heroes. Whatever the reason, redeeming qualities seem to come into the mix.
Now in fairness Aizen does go back to being imprisoned
We don’t see that process though
We don’t know if they forced him back into his chair or if he just went back himself
Either way I agree when there is a team up in Shonen it usually leads to the villain gain Mittgatting qualities
Unless your Frieza
Edited by YorkobeShounen on Apr 24th 2024 at 7:02:28 AM
Showtime!
Cut Peter, leaning cut to Aizen
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?I THINK if it's less blatant than villain respect I'm fine with Aizen going.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
The Dragon
The whole hidden loneliness thing is just a small subconscious thing, that Aizen never openly expresses, and it is never once brought up again for the remainder of the manga, and it honestly kind of falls flat for me when he's literally cutting down people who are otherwise completely loyal to him.
Aizen doesn't have any care for Ichigo beyond seeing him as a useful weapon against Yhwach. Him complimenting him seems more like him admiring a successful science experiment than anything else.
Edited by TiMBer1566 on Apr 24th 2024 at 10:18:57 AM
That’s a fair counter and I can get behind using the heroes as a means to an end and his loneliness ringing hollow but his choice of the word courage is my big point of worry, it feels an odd choice on the author’s point to have him just express that an experiment of his has turned out well. Not voting either way yet but I think this is a good discussion and haven’t seen this particular point get the talk it deserves.
The Dragon
That's really just Aizen commentating on Ichigo's courage and acknowledging it as the reason both he and Yhwach lost in the end, rather than him having any genuine respect for his courage or for Ichigo as a person.
Edited by TiMBer1566 on Apr 24th 2024 at 11:13:23 AM
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Will edge keep on Aizen.
IPP Wick Check created.
Goku Black
Keep Aizen
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I will concede on the loneliness part given your point but I am not sure if “he is only acknowledging why he lost” is really the best way to explain him pointing out the courage
It’s still odd for the insanely egotistical Aizen take note of the value of the courage of another
I feel like we are just automatically assuming that it isn’t genuine like we did with that Fairy tale guy we just cut
If you all deem it not a problem then that’s ok of course
Just want to make sure we are exploring every avenue and I am glad we did discuss this
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Red Dead Redemption wasn't approved, was it? Now, there are currently 6, and it looks like there'll be at least 2 more, so there will be enough, but...
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Honestly it’s all so scant—IIRC just two panels really that are cause for concern—I am inclined to say so far Timber’s giving very good responses to the worries. Leaning keep myself for now!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I mean I am okay with a Red Dead page but only because we are getting more and I think 8 in a single tree is okay to make a page.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Though if we DO do a page, it should probably be Monster.Red Dead.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, keep, but rewrite.
If nothing else, I think resources works in Punchnello's favor here: He's The Don, but Horne "has more than half the city in her pocket".
EDIT: I ask again about the Time After Time candidate.
Edited by ACW on Apr 24th 2024 at 6:51:38 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts