Deciding on Snapdragon's Pronouns

I get your concerns. It's a controversial issue for sure which is why the crowner is such a mess. Nobody wants to be transphobic, the question is pretty much just "which source is more accurate", but I can definitely see why the He/Him route would be problematic under the circumstances even if it's just being accurate to the show itself.

It's a matter of whether or not Word of God's information trumps what the show actually said about the subject (which is that transitioning might not be the right choice for Snap, but that it's still an option). If a character's gender identity isn't explained in the work, then is WOG's statement canon, or should we go with the ambiguity of the show?

That's basically what the debate has been about; if Snap being trans is something we should take as undisputable canon or if the show itself is all that matters.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 2nd 2022 at 8:50:19 AM

I agree it's weird and vaguely unpleasant, but we're bound by precedent.

I'm going with precedent. It's only Word of God, it's not actually confirmed in the show.

We don't trope based on Word of God, we trope based on things that are actually in the media in question. In the show, the character isn't explicitly a trans girl. It's implied that that may be the case, but it's discussed and it's not ruled out that there might be a different path, in the show.

Word of God has been, by precedent, determined not to be enough to justify tropes in the past. I see no reason why that should change this time, because that sets a new, bad precedent where Word of God can justify pretty much any alteration to a work page.

If there was a way to justify using She/Her that didn't set a really bad precedent, I'd do that, but I don't see one.

easy. you declare that this is a special case to avoid being transphobic and that it doesn't set precedent except for similar cases where not following WOG leads to (unintentional) bigotry.

precedent isn't an iron-clad requirement and not everything has to be precedential.

My only real concern is the confusion issue; that is, that someone who watched the show but didn't know about the tweet would expect He/Him pronouns for Snap simply because it's what the show itself used. I went in already knowing about it so I wasn't confused, but someone else might be.

Snap's case is bizarre in general since the low ratings means there'll probably never be another season, so we'll likely never get any in-universe confirmation in any direction. We can only go with what we all agree to be canon.

And personally if people say that WOG is canon in this case, then that's fine with me. I'm not afraid that it'll set a bad precedent, but it's true that current precedent says we don't go with WOG.

That said, if the crowner remains unstable we'll likely be in a "no change" position, in which case the current status quo (She/Her) will be preserved by default. Well, that or we can only use Snap's name and no pronouns at all, but that seems complicated.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 2nd 2022 at 8:59:55 AM

which can be solved with a note in her character folder. isn't that what we'd do anyway if the character had been confirmed to be trans in the work? something along the lines of "She/her pronouns are used in all cases, even for appearances prior to the confirmation of her gender identity."

this seems a lot more black and white to me than it appears to be for yall.

That could work, personally I made a beeline for the YMMV page (because I like controversy sometimes) and that's where I first noticed the use of She/Her pronouns, but anyone concerned about Snap as a character will probably read the character's page anyway. If it becomes a problem I suppose invisible notes would do the trick?

IDK. Depending on how long this crowner gets to run for... We'll see what happens I guess?

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 2nd 2022 at 9:03:15 AM

But the problem is, it's already against precedent to do this.

The toaster precedent is against this. I don't remember whether or not the one piece precedent is against this, but it might be.

Precedent is not ironclad, but it's hardly transphobic to ignore Word of God when precedent is at least already against that in regards to gender (toaster precedent, which I was more involved in than the one piece precedent). The argument doesn't hold water that we can take something as big a deal as this apparently is, and then just say it doesn't set a precedent. Precedent is not set by choice, it's always being set, and what you suggest sets a bad precedent, and also lays the groundwork for worse in the future.

Word of God is not canon. We don't trope Word of God. We trope shows in the present of the show, and in the present of the show, Snapdragon is not using she/her, or they/them, or any other pronouns besides he/him (as far as I'm aware.)

This is a very grey issue. That's why it's come up. Thinking to the future, I really would rather not set a bad precedent here that could be cited later, for reasons that are good in the moment.

^^ I stated earlier that I'm letting it run until the 4th. I decided to give it an extra three days to stabilize.

alright, so you'd rather set a precedent of being transphobic (using he/him pronouns for a transfemme character, i am telling you as a trans person, is transphobic. end of discussion). cool cool cool cool cool.

people have explained already why this case is different from the prior cases. Snapdragon's gender identity is central to her character arc.

> The argument doesn't hold water that we can take something as big a deal as this apparently is, and then just say it doesn't set a precedent.

we straight up can, though. it's standard procedure in legal courts. if we say "this is an exceptional case and cannot be considered precedent for troping Word of God outside of similar exceptional cases", that's that.

The thing about both Toaster and One Piece is that they were both way less ambiguous.

Toaster was just "creator says one thing, work says another" with no other relevant information, since Toaster's gender was kind of meaningless anyway.

In One Piece, the issue is that some random pieces of expanded universe material depicted Yamato as a woman when the work made it extremely clear that they're a trans man. It was a bunch of people grasping at straws to "prove" that Yamato didn't actually identify as a man... even if he said he did, and even if the work went out of its way to reinforce it.

This is more complicated since Snap's identity is the entire point of their arc, and the only reason there's even a debate is because the show didn't elaborate on it after episode 11. It's not just a case of "WOG says one thing but the work says another", it's "The work left it ambiguous and WOG clarified later, but canon remains unclear".

So I don't think the precedent is as important in this case since the other two cases were either entirely irrelevant to the actual story and character, or as blatant as could be with a few people refusing to accept it. We can go with WOG here, if that's what people consider to be canon, since it's a creator addressing something the show left ambiguous.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 2nd 2022 at 9:18:34 AM

I don't think the problem is Word of God. I think it can and in this case - since the series is all but certainly dead - should be taken as granted. The problem, though, is that AFAIK confirmation that Snapdragon is a trans woman is not confirmation of what pronouns would have been used. I am inclined to suspect she/her but it's not a certainty.

The gender confirmation implies the pronouns (she/her), I think.

Edited by Playing_with_boy on Aug 2nd 2022 at 6:23:06 AM

Yeah, we can assume Snap would use She/Her and while I guess that's technically speculative this is a show that also felt the need to tell the audience what being transgender meant, so it's highly unlikely that they'd actually have Snap transition without adopting feminine pronouns because that'd be too complicated for something like High Guardian Spice. Possible, but unlikely.

It's a show for kids that was forced to shoehorn in adult elements later on. With the current tone in mind, there's no doubt that Snap would definitely use She/Her pronouns if they transitioned in the show proper.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 2nd 2022 at 9:27:16 AM

I'm also trans, and if we're going to decree that it's transphobic-end-of-story, that would be great and all, but you bringing up your transness doesn't really come into it. It's greyer than you're making it out to be.

The problem is that we don't trope as if word of god is true for concluded or discontinued series anywhere else as far as I'm aware, and while there are multiple implications in the show that snapdragon is some flavor of trans, there is also discussion in the show about how exactly snapdragon was going to handle that, and there was no clear conclusion in the show.

While it does seem reasonable to assume she/her, it is still technically speculation, and it's a hard no on speculative troping. It's quite possible the creators would change their mind about how they wanted it handled, assuming the show continued (which it may well not). I would like a scenario where she/her is the best option, but it isn't. If there were examples of us troping as if Word of God is true elsewhere in concluded or discontinued series, I might chance my stance, but as far as I'm aware, to do otherwise is to trope an audience reaction and/or trivia on the main pages. The issue runs deeper than reader confusion regarding the page, from where I stand, the issue is quite clearly, to me, a problem with speculative troping.

Speculative troping is quite clearly incorrect, end of story. We trope stories in their own present, we don't trope the future-that-could-have-been. We don't trope leaks, and I don't see how Word of God on a likely cancelled project is anything more than a leak.

then we have an unbridgeable division of opinion. you think that speculative troping is worse than transphobia. i will never be convinced of that and i do not see any other possible read of your position.

I don't think it's transphobia at all. If it were, I'd comment on it.

I think that the Word of God is irrelevant to the work itself, and in the work's present, the character in question uses He/Him. That isn't debatable, this is true. EDIT: (the second half, after the and. The first half is opinion)

That COULD change in the future, but as is, there is no future to trope. Other work pages don't trope the future, and this one shouldn't be the exception because of some dubious transphobia complaint.

Edited by Florien on Aug 2nd 2022 at 7:29:04 AM

see above re:unbridgeable division of opinion. i have nothing more to say.

Yeahhhh, before this gets a bit too heated we should probably see if anyone else wants to chime in now that points have been made. Of course a lot of this was discussed earlier, but you two perfectly encapsulate the two sides of the conflict, and I think everyone else is more or less in the middle somewhere. So this might lay out the two possible interpretations of the scenario that people can choose between.

i meant it, im done, except for this: Florien, i apologize if anything i said seemed personal. i was upset, of course, but everything i said was directed at your position, not you.

i respect that you want what is best for the wiki, the same as i do. we just disagree about what that is.

I get it, Chloe. Thanks for popping in to argue your side; maybe you've swayed some lurkers. Who knows.

To give an opinion that isn't just the same two people arguing with each other:

We care about what's in the work first and foremost. The work never refers to Snapdragon as anything other than male.

Understandable, it is obviously a bit of an easy-to-interpret-in-hostile-ways subject. I certainly didn't intend any offence and I apologize if any was caused.

Well, let's hope the crowner stabilizes one way or the other sooner rather than later.

Edited by Florien on Aug 2nd 2022 at 7:43:28 AM

Huh, looks like I missed a lot.

Seems to be the case since she/her is now in the green, though still behind he/him.

Personally (as a nonbinary person), I voted for he/him because at the end of the day, we're talking about the events of season 1, which ends ambiguously in regards to Snapdragon. If a season two were to ever be made, and Snap went by she/her pronouns in that season, I'd be all for changing across the board.

I checked the twitter of the show creator (the one who gave the Word of God) to see what else he had to say on the subject:

Oct 29, 2021: In response to someone asking "Can you tell us what pronouns Snapdragon prefers or would that be a spoiler?"

(note: the show dropped just a few days before this, on Oct 26)

Nov 4, 2021: In response to: "what pronouns should we use with Snapdragon at the moment? As far as I noticed the series still ends with he/him so this is what I've been using (including in a video I just posted), but I've seen some people use she/her and couldn't find any official sources."

Nov 22, 2021: The tweet where he says Snap is a trans girl

May 11, 2022: In In response to: " I’m loving high guardian spice! I’ve found myself relating to a lot of the characters, and I thought of a question that I really hoped you could answer: Does Snap Dragon change her name? Snap Dragon isn’t a gendered name, so I was wondering if she’d ever change it."

Okay, so according to Raye Rodriguez the pronouns either seem to be She/Her or They/Them, depending on if the second two hold more weight (since the last one uses "her").

Edit: Huh, did someone switch to a downvote on She/Her all of a sudden? It went from 17/14 to 16/15

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 2nd 2022 at 11:34:58 AM