Bonus Boss nuances

So I'm doing the wick check, and a lot of the wicks are examples of Superboss. But given that the page description is also about that, it would technically be considered correct usage, so I'm not sure that a hypothetical TRS thread would be approved.

Edit: My progress on the wick check is here. Any help sorting the cinnamon entries would be appreciated.

Edited by Serac on Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:52:18 PM

I would call both of those side-quests, myself: there's a clear, linear sequence of events, even if it's something that the player is required to find for themselves. Side-quests aren't always handed to the player, nor are they always explicit when they are found.

Hmm... As I see things, I would call all of those BonusBosses/SecretBosses.

You say that without the secrecy, there's no clear distinction between a Bonus Boss and an Optional Boss, and I would somewhat agree. However, I would say that this is because "Bonus Boss" is a subtrope of "Optional Boss", and thus all BonusBosses are "OptionalBosses".

However, it's not true that all OptionalBosses are BonusBosses: some are SkippableBosses, for example.

"Optional Boss" covers more types of boss than does Bonus Boss, being the overarching trope for a variety of forms of optionality.

So I think that there is a clear distinction: An Optional Boss is any boss that needn't be fought. A Bonus Boss is any boss that is optional by virtue of the player not necessarily encountering them on one or another route, specifically.

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Those are functionally identical, though. A lack of a distinguishing feature (like Skippable Boss) is not itself a distinguishing feature.

I would argue that they're not at all identical, and that one is far broader than the other, and contains the other (just as it contains Skippable Boss, too).

And I would say that Bonus Boss has a distinguishing feature: the possibility that the boss might not be found at all.

So, for example, a Skippable Boss is an Optional Boss that needn't be fought because the player can make the encounter non-combative. That is, it's the combativeness of the boss that's optional.

Similarly, a Route Boss is an Optional Boss that needn't be fought because the player may be on a route that doesn't include it. Here it's the boss's branch of the story that is optional.

In the same way, a Bonus Boss is an Optional Boss that needn't be fought because it needn't be encountered. That is, it's the player's discovery and engagement of the boss that's optional.

All of these—Skippable Boss, Route Boss, and Bonus Boss—are specific forms of Optional Boss, each optional in their own distinct way: in the nature of the encounter (combat or not); in the plot that contains them (this route or that); and in the discovery of a boss that is out there (go here and find it, or go there and don't).

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:37:36 AM

My Games & Writing

I agree with that. In fact, I believe we all agree that Optional Boss should be a Supertrope here.

To clarify the differences between the subtropes:

• Skippable Boss: Oh no, I must get past this guy to progress the plot! Wait, there are dialogue options? He'll let me go if I answer right? Hmm, should I take that offer or not...?
• Bonus Boss: That's a pretty interesting sidequest, there's probably a nifty reward at the end of it... [two hours later] ...And the reward is guarded by a dragon. I should have known.
  • Alternative Bonus Boss: Let's go back to the dungeon to see if I missed any treasure ch- OH MY GOD WHAT IS THAT
• Route Boss: OK, either of those paths can get me to the villain's lair, but if I go through the swap I'll have to fight the giant eel, and if I go through the mountain I'll have to fight the lava monster. Choices, choices...

Edited by Lermis on Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:19:02 PM

SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.

That still doesn't strike me as a meaningful distinction.

Let me put it this way: if Bonus Boss is just "any boss you might not encounter", then what exactly does that leave for Optional Boss? Literally everything would fall under Bonus Boss. Supertropes are supposed to list examples that do not fit any of the subtropes. If a supertrope and a subtrope have the same definition, then there is no reason for that subtrope to exist.

Can you give me an example of Optional Boss that doesn't also fall under your own definition of Bonus Boss (or one of the other subtropes)?

Edited by Primis on Dec 3rd 2020 at 5:28:05 AM

There are still suggestions to renaming and potentially splitting Bonus Boss in order to meet a new difficulty standard - in particular, extremely difficult optional bosses that you can fight for the challenge. The page image of the trope suggests that that's the case, and I'm pretty sure that was the original intention of the trope. In this case, the Superbosses would go to what was formerly Bonus Boss, and the rest would go to Optional Boss.

SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.

Sounds like a good suggestion. It would help give Optional Boss its own identity rather than be a disambig or an index.

Edited by DivineFlame100 on Dec 4th 2020 at 3:30:26 AM

So then what about Secret Bosses?

My ideal splitting would look like this:

• Optional Boss: Supertrope. Any boss you might not encounter. Includes most sidequest bosses. Bonus Boss redirects here.
  • Route Boss: Any boss that is only encountered in one particular story branch.
  • Secret Boss: Any boss that you must track down on your own, with no prompt from the game.
  • Skippable Boss: Any boss that is encountered in normal play, but can potentially be avoided depending on player choice.
  • Superboss: Any Optional Boss that is designed to be tougher than the Final Boss.
  • True Final Boss: Final Bosses that locked out until the player meets certain criteria. Usually unlocks an alternate ending.

I'd like to note that these aren't mutually exclusive either. Most Superbosses that I've seen are also Secret Bosses, for instance.

Edited by Primis on Dec 4th 2020 at 8:39:14 AM

So is anyone going to comment on my wick check?

Oh, right. Sorry! The wiki check looks good.

Secret Boss? While there are a few examples I can think of, I'm not sure if there are enough. We'll have to go through the Bonus Boss page and wicks to gather them.

I suggest making a Sandbox or three to divide the examples per their new definitions - once we actually all agree to the definitions. That way we can keep easier track of everything and not lose or misplace examples by accident before moving to TRS.

Your wick check should be useful for that.

This IS eventually going to TRS, right?

As for Route Boss... How about we go to TLP? There are plenty of examples, I believe. I have some free time to make the initial draft.

Edited by Lermis on Dec 4th 2020 at 6:38:13 PM

SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.

There is an abundance of Secret Bosses. Trust me, I've seen plenty. I feel confident in saying that there are more examples of regular-strength Secret Bosses than there are Superbosses or Route Bosses. True Final Bosses, by their very nature, are variations of Secret Bosses.

The Sandboxes are a good idea, I can get to work on those later.

Speaking of Route Boss, I've made a first trope description draft. Haven't gone to TLP yet; I want to see if we all agree to this and whether you can think of something to change, add or remove.

Edited by Lermis on Dec 5th 2020 at 11:36:04 AM

SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.

Looks good for the most part. However, a small adjustment is needed to prevent possible misuse with mandatory bosses you have to fight. Like, for example, the Sonic the Hedgehog series from Sonic Adventure to Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) uses multiple story perspectives with some route-specific bosses, but you will encounter them on your playthrough regardless, so they're not optional.

Looking at the wick check... you were unsure about how to classify the Touhou Extra Stage bosses, so I can try to help with that. Basically, after you've beaten the game (sometimes only after beating it on Normal or higher), you unlock an "Extra Stage", which is entirely separate from the main game — you select it from the main menu, and play through it as a single stage. It's meant to be an extra challenge for players who have beaten the main game, but its existence isn't secret.

So, what would that fall under?

I'll edit that when able. I thought I covered that possibility, but apparently not.

That falls under Optional Boss, unless they are particularly difficult, which would make them a Superboss.

Edited by Lermis on Dec 4th 2020 at 1:32:24 PM

SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.

Touhou extra bosses are in a weird spot, because normal game have four different difficulties, but the extra stage only has one fixed difficulty. General consensus is that they're more difficult than the final boss in Normal difficulty, around the same level as Hard difficulty, and easier than the Lunatic difficulty.

That said, from an objective perspective, I'd still classify them as a superboss. A regular final boss in Touhou has around 10 different attacks you have to endure, while the extra boss has double that.

I brought this up with True Final Boss earlier. I had said that if you hadn't fought the True Final Boss, then you haven't finished the game, therefore True Final Boss isn't optional. But then Lermis mentioned that Persona 4 actively leads you to believe you've seen everything.

I guess it all depends on how much you consider optional or not. I know some people are content to only play Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles's routes when replaying Sonic Adventure. There's nothing wrong with that, those campaigns are all self-contained and don't really leave anything unresolved, they even have their own credits sequences. Sure, we all know about Super Sonic and Perfect Chaos now, but that was a secret at first.

I have no problem considering Chaos 2 or the Egg Walker (only fought in Knuckles and Tails's routes, respectively) technically optional.

Edited by Primis on Dec 4th 2020 at 8:24:38 AM

I suppose the only Sonic game that falls under the current definition of the proposal would be Shadow the Hedgehog. Unlike the other Sonic games in that era where story routes are linear (thus the progression to the bosses are inevitable), here, you have some leeway of which level path you want to take based on the missions you do, so the bosses in that game are entirely route-dependant.

Are you guys talking about Route Boss or True Final Boss?

Because, I was thinking about the Sonic thing earlier and well... Even if the order in which you fight the bosses affects the plot, if you do in fact have to fight all of them, then they're not Optional, are they? It was stated earlier.

However, they do hit several other markers in the description, such as affecting story content or enhancing Replay Value.

So, do we need to change the definition of Route Boss, are the Sonic examples a subversion, or they do not fit this trope at all?

I think we all need to chime in on the definition here, and work out the details. Then we go to TLP.

I say we treat the Normal difficulty as the standard. I'm pretty sure that's the accepted consensus for games in general.

I'm pretty sure than in most, if not all, games, the True Final Boss is supposed to be "hidden". There's the ending you get without fighting it and the ending you get if you do fight it.

Edited by Lermis on Dec 5th 2020 at 12:11:35 PM

SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.

Urgh ,sorry for the delay in response—yesterday was a bit rough for me. ^^;

That looks pretty good to me (and amusingly put). ^_^

It's a super-trope—why does it need to have examples that don't fall into one of its sub-tropes?

Hmm... But one example (well, sort of—it's not strictly a boss, I think) does come to mind:

In the Fighting Fantasy gamebook Deathtrap Dungeon, the player eventually ends up in an arena. They're then given two anagrammed enemy-names, and allowed to pick which they want to fight, presuming that they can unscramble either. (The options unscramble to indicate a giant scorpion and a minotaur, to be specific.)

The player must fight one or the other. (Failing to unscramble either word leads to a game-over.)

However, the choice doesn't affect the plot in any way that I recall. There's also no way to avoid the fight at this point, I believe. (Well, other than the aforementioned game-over, I suppose. :P)

So, the two enemies in question are optional, but neither are skippable, or bonuses. One could argue for their being route-bosses, but since there's little difference save for the specifics of that one fight, that might be argued to be a little tenuous.

(I forget whether there's a path that avoids the arena. I don't think so, but either way, for the sake of argument let's assume that there isn't.)

So, presuming that we call these enemies "bosses" (which is arguable, in all fairness), they would each be Optional Bosses, but not Bonus Bosses, or Skippable Bosses, or (arguably) Route Bosses.

Not so—examples of Skippable Boss for one wouldn't fall under Bonus Boss, despite that trope being a sub-trope of Optional Boss.

This would imply that a Skippable Boss is a specific type of Bonus Boss.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 5th 2020 at 12:27:14 PM

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> "Because, I was thinking about the Sonic thing earlier and well... Even if the order in which you fight the bosses affects the plot, if you do in fact have to fight all of them, then they're not Optional, are they? It was stated earlier."

Yeah. In the Sonic games that use the multiple stories method, you will have to fight the bosses regardless even if you're just rushing through the campaigns without doing all of the side content. Sure, some routes have unique bosses that can only be fought in that route (like Chaos 2 for Knuckles, Egg Walker for Tails, and the E-series robots for Gamma in Sonic Adventure), but they're still in the way of their respective plots, so there's no way around them. Shadow the Hedgehog is more of an ambiguous case because, depending on what missions you do, it is possible to skip the mid-route bosses since you're only required to beat one of three final bosses at the end of each playthrough (those being Black Doom, the Egg Dealer, and the GUN Commander in his Diablo mech).

Edited by DivineFlame100 on Dec 5th 2020 at 2:58:36 AM

If you can avoid a boss in some routes, then it's a Route Boss. If you can't avoid a boss despite which route you're taking, it's nit a Route Boss.

However, this reminds me.

I had listed the Undertale bosses earlier on this thread, and other than the definite Route Bosses, a few of them change firms and strategies depending on the route. For example, Undyne becomes the Undying in Genocide, and with it comes a MAJOR difficulty spike.

How would something like that count? You fight Undyne in all the routes, but you only get to fight her Super Form in a particular one.

Do you guys have in mind any example where the boss goes under MAJOR changes depending on the route? Would they count for Route Boss?

SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.

I would consider the Super Form a Route Boss, yes.

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re: The Sonic thing: It really comes down to what you consider a "Route" or not. Are separate character campaigns (Tails, Knuckles, Amy, etc.) optional routes, or an essential part of the game that you must play to say that you have finished the game? This is the sticking point, I believe.

And do the "routes" have to be mostly identical, save for these particular bosses (e.g. Tails), to count? Or does a route that that has virtually nothing in common with the main route (e.g. Gamma) still count?

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That is what Supertropes do. That is the point of them. There is not supposed to be a subtrope that is just "And the Rest" for the examples that don't fit the other subtropes. "Supertrope" is not a synonym for "Disambiguation".

Earlier this year I made Post-Release Retitle through the TLP to cover examples of works changing their titles that didn't fit any of the existing tropes about changing titles. I specifically set out to make it a supertrope, not just some random trope that's just 'Like Retronym, except there's no clearly-defined reason.'. All of those aforementioned retitling tropes are now subtropes of Post-Release Retitle, which itself now covers examples that don't fit any of those. This is the same thing.

Skippable Boss is a different subtrope. The "everything" I was referring to was everything that didn't fit one of the other subtropes.

In this scenario, Bonus Boss would just be another name for Optional Boss, hence being a redirect. So yes, it would.

Edited by Primis on Dec 5th 2020 at 9:07:05 AM