Bonus Boss nuances

I was sent here from ATT, so I'm copy-pasting the initial question. Tell me if this goes somewhere else.

Here is a thing I have noticed about Bonus Boss that I would like to discuss a bit;

In the ThatOneBoss.Atlus page, there is a restriction that says "no Bonus Bosses". Then it explains that bosses that are fought to unlock specific endings do not count as such. In other words, you can finish the game without fighting the boss, but if you go for a specific ending, you HAVE to and WILL fight it. According to that, those bosses are NOT bonus bosses.

OK so far, but then I noticed that other pages for games that also have Multiple Endings treat the issue a bit differently.

For example, the Undertale page (and by default the Deltarune page as well) refer to bosses that can only be fought in specific endings as Bonus Bosses. For example, the Final Boss of the Genocide run. You don't have to fight that boss to finish the game, but if you go through the necessary steps to achieve the Genocide run, you HAVE to fight him to get that ending.

This situation is identical to the one described in the Atlus page above, with one difference; the Undertale page still treats those bosses are Bonus Bosses, even if fighting them becomes obligatory under certain conditions.

I'm pretty sure there are similar situations and differences in many other pages.

So, what should we do here? Is this a case of trope misuse? Unclear description? A subject that has not been addressed? Can something be done?

Going by that definition (which I agree with), I'd say the Undertale / Deltarune examples are misuse.

I agree with that, but the replies I got on the ATT thread think otherwise.

One person says that it's a question of how secret the endings are, and another says that there's no point to connecting the act of fighting a boss to unlocking an ending because technically any boss fight can become obligatory.

I always thought BB was specifically for late-game bosses that are optional, as strong as or stronger than the final boss, and don't affect the story in a meaningful way if you fight them, and the main purpose of such an encounter is to add in an additional challenge you can take on after you complete the main story. But then, I've also wanted to rename it to Superboss for a while now. Bonus Boss is quite a bit broader, and I could see it referring to any optional boss.

I don't think Story Branching should affect the definition. If you need to beat a boss in order to complete any particular campaign or path, it is, by definition, not a "bonus". Regardless of how secret the campaign is.

A Bonus Boss should be 100% skippable, or even missable, only necessary for 100% Completion.

I would consider Superbosses, like the Weapons from FF7, a subtrope. Basically the Boss version of Brutal Bonus Level.

Edited by Primis on Nov 27th 2020 at 3:53:39 AM

I agree with you both. So I suppose we're looking at a misuse of the trope then.

But, is it just a few isolated instances, or do people genuinely think that a Bonus Boss is any boss that can be technically avoided? I know we have Skippable Boss...

That said, I don't think there are currently any strength requirements in Bonus Boss. For example, a sidequest that leads to a boss fight; it can be pretty average and not affect the overall plot.

Edited by Lermis on Nov 27th 2020 at 1:13:34 PM

I'm in the "I want Bonus Boss to refer to optional superbosses instead of any optional boss" camp.

I'm thinking we should expand Optional Boss into a full supertrope rather than a disambiguation page. This would let us narrow Bonus Boss while still giving excluded examples somewhere to go.

That sounds good to me.

OK. So if we have Optional Boss as a supertrope, with Bonus Boss as a subtrope that refers to the particularly difficult ones, then what other tropes should go under Optional Boss? Skippable Boss?

EDIT: Just went to the page. Saw True Final Boss.

Which brings the same questions as the Bonus Boss query at the beginning.

Edited by Lermis on Nov 28th 2020 at 12:23:03 PM

Skippable Boss should definitely be under Optional Boss. I wouldn't count True Final Boss though. If you haven't beat the True Final Boss, then you haven't finished the game.

If Bonus Boss does get reworked to be specifically about difficult, optional bosses, then it should definitely be retitled to Superboss, which is currently a redirect.

Edited by Primis on Nov 28th 2020 at 8:39:27 AM

It IS possible to finish the game without fighting the True Final Boss.

For example, in Persona 4, you get the good ending if you find the killer and fight him, but then in the playable epilogue where you walk around town and talk to everyone, literally everything in the game is telling you "game over there's nothing more" and can finish it there... BUT taking some specific actions leads to the True Final Boss, which not only greatly affects the plot, but also gives you answers and the golden ending.

Undertale could also count as an example; the true pacifist ending - aka the Golden Ending - is only available if you first complete the Pacifist Neutral ending. You can drop the game there and have what's technically a proper ending, or you can go back, follow a sequence of events that only unlock at that point, and then the next boss fight is the True Final Boss that gives you a better ending.

Overall I think that the whole "True Final Boss" thing is a mechanism to unlock alternative endings.

Hey guys, should I rename the thread? It seems to have turned into an "Optional Boss TRS" thing.

Edited by Lermis on Nov 28th 2020 at 9:49:38 PM

Alright, based on that, I guess True Final Boss can count as Optional Boss.

I think a proper TRS thread is the next step, but you'll probably need a wick check to see how many examples of Bonus Boss are actually Superbosses, and how many are just ordinary-strength Optional Bosses.

Edited by Primis on Nov 28th 2020 at 9:43:57 AM

While I agree with classifying the Skippable Boss as a type of Optional Boss, I'm not sure that I agree with moving non-Super BonusBosses into the parent-trope.

To my mind, so moving non-Super BonusBosses suggests a relationship between them and SkippableBosses that I don't think quite holds for me: it suggests that the former are examples of the base form of the trope, and that the latter are examples of a more-specific form.

But on the contrary, I feel that they are instead two distinct sibling branches of the Optional Boss, involving two distinct aspects of their place in the game:

• BonusBosses are defined by the place of their encounter in the game's events.
  • Specifically, that there's the possibility that they might never be encountered at all.
• SkippableBosses, on the other hand, are defined by how an encounter with them plays out.
  • Specifically, should they be encountered, it's possible to avoid actually fighting them.
  • Whether the encounter is required or not is irrelevant to the trope.

Furthermore, I don't see a significant distinction between a Super Boss and a Bonus Boss—what is the former if not just the latter, but more difficult?

Thus I'm inclined to suggest indeed making Skippable Boss a sub-trope of Optional Boss, but to leave Bonus Boss as likewise a sub-trope, including both Super- and non-Super- bosses. Optional Boss would thus remain an abstract parent-trope.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:23:20 AM

There are several Bonus Bosses (by the current definition) that are not super uber powerful. I know that from experience.

Edited by Lermis on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:41:01 AM

I'm not sure that I follow your argument...

As I said, as I see it a "Super Boss" is just a "Bonus Boss, but harder"—i.e. The Same, but More. So, my argument therefore is that the question of whether or not a Bonus Boss is particularly difficult to defeat isn't important to whether or not it's to be considered a Bonus Boss.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Nov 29th 2020 at 1:06:23 PM

I wasn't really arguing...

I'm just trying to figure out - do we break bonus boss in two tropes or something? Because if we make Bonus Boss into Superboss, then the bonus bosses that do NOT fill the "impossible difficulty" standard could go to Optional Boss.

However, at this point another problem pops up;

The fact that difficulty is more or less a YMMV problem. Sure there are bosses we ALL have a hard time with, but it's not the same for everyone.

Ah, sorry—I took it from the fact that you were replying directly so that you were arguing against my suggestions.

Well, that's what I was addressing: I'm arguing that "Bonus Bosses" don't fit well as implicit-supertrope-examples to "Skippable Bosses", but rather as sibling-trope-examples. So I'm therefore arguing that they not be moved to "Optional Boss", but remain in "Bonus Boss".

And since I feel that "Super Bosses" are just "Bonus Bosses, but harder", I don't see a reason to separate the two. I argue then that both "Super Bosses" and "Bonus Bosses" be kept in the "Bonus Boss" trope, without a rename.

That's a good point, actually—and indeed, one that I think reinforces my feeling that "Super Bosses" just be included amongst "Bonus Bosses".

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Nov 29th 2020 at 4:48:12 PM

The way I see it, Bonus Bosses — both Super and not — are out of the way and need to be actively tracked down, while Skippable Bosses are encountered in normal play, but you may be able to skip them depending on your choices. Whether you fight them or not is up to you, but you will encounter them.

I could definitely see that approach, I think.

For myself, I see them as orthogonal: an optional boss can be skippable, or not be; a skippable boss can be optional, or required.

I don't think this is as subjective as most people think. For example, it's pretty clear-cut if a game's final boss is level 70 and there are superbosses at level 90+, including one that's level 130 (and your characters can only go up to level 99). Or if a boss has considerably more max health than the final boss and significantly stronger attacks, including multiple flavors of One-Hit Kill effects that the final boss doesn't have.

I realize that both of those examples are from JRPGs, but I don't think this trope is exclusive to them. But we should frame it as "stronger than the final boss", not "more difficult than the final boss". A player's experiences with different bosses are subjective, but the numbers are not.

Edited by Serac on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:01:45 AM

Yes, sheer numbers make it extremely easy to tell what is and isn't a "Superboss".

I agree with that too.

For Skippable Boss, I also agree with the above statements, so there is no problem there.

Now, let's see what we got here:

• Optional Boss: Supertrope; Any boss that you do not have to fight.
  • Skippable Boss: You will run into it, but depending on your choices you will avoid fighting it.
  • True Final Boss: A boss that can be fought seemingly after the game is over, in order to get another - usually better - ending.
  • Bonus Boss: An optional boss that does not affect the ending or have real bearing to the plot, and has to be actively sought out in order to be fought.
  • Superboss: A bonus boss that is deliberately designed to be significantly harder than the game's Final Boss or True Final Boss.

Now that we were discussing about all that, I remembered my initial question that made me start this thread to begin with.

Different bosses being connected to different endings. True Final Boss is definitely a case of this, but many games with a Morality System, multiple endings and different routes end up having different boss fights that are connected to them.

So back to what I was saying above, you can finish the game without fighting them, but if you go through certain steps, you HAVE to fight them to get the ending.

I'll bring up an example that I suppose we are all familiar with; Undertale, a game that has a lot of the boss tropes above applying to it, and Multiple Endings and routes.

So, the bosses you WILL encounter are:

1. Napstablook: Mini-Boss
2. Toriel
3. Papyrus
4. Mad Dummy: Mini-Boss (Glad Dummy in Genocide)
5. Undyne (the Undying in Genocide)
6. Muffet: Skippable Boss if you eat one of her products before her
7. Mettaton EX (NEO in Genocide)

Afterwards, there are a few optional fights like So Sorry that you have to seek out, and have no impact on the events of the game. Those aren't necessarily harder than the final bosses.

Then, depending on the route, things change. In any run of the game where you go Neutral (ranging from killing nobody to killing almost everybody), the bosses following are Asgore and Omega Flowey.

Going Pacifist Neutral, beating the two AND getting the pacifist neutral ending means that you can go back to the point after you fought Mettaton, and go for the Golden Ending. In this case, Asgore and Flowey are skipped entirely, and you go for the True Final Boss.

Now, there is also the Genocide. Unlike the Golden ending, it is possible to go through that route on a first playthrough. So in this route, you CANNOT skip Muffet, and after Mettaton, you end up fighting an entirely different SNK Boss that wasn't present in all the other routes. That boss is deliberately designed to be utterly unfair. Then after you beat that Asgore and Flowey both become Cutscene Bosses, which I'm not sure actually counts as a boss fight. And you get the Genocide ending.

So, does the SNK Boss here count as a Bonus Boss? We agreed earlier no. Is he a True Final Boss? Not sure, because you can technically gun for him on first playthrough without getting any other endings first.

Similar scenarios play in other games as well, I just picked the one we're all most likely to be familiar with.

In short, we need to figure out where optional bosses that are connected to endings are supposed to go.

Edited by Lermis on Nov 30th 2020 at 11:23:36 AM

Agreed.

I largely agree, save that I'd drop the first part.

Are there no bosses that are potentially not encountered and that also can potentially be skipped via player choices? What makes such a boss any different from a boss that is required, but that can be skipped via player choices?

Agreed.

Agreed, I believe.

Here I partially agree: As I said above, I don't see this as being distinct enough from any other "Bonus Boss" to warrant a separate trope. And if it is deemed to be a separate trope, then I'd argue for it being a sub-trope of "Bonus Boss", rather than a sister-trope to it.

So my formulation would be something like this:

• Optional Boss: The super-trope. Any boss that in some way needn't be fought.
  • True Final Boss: Any boss that is hidden, and that, if certain requirements are met, appears in place of or after the usual final boss.
  • Skippable Boss: Any boss that, if encountered, the player can potentially avoid combat with via certain choices.
  • Bonus Boss: Any boss that the player may or may not encounter. My or may not be designed to be particularly difficult to defeat.

Alternatively, if Super Boss is deemed to be a separate trope:

• Bonus Boss: Any boss that the player may or may not encounter.
  • Super Boss: A Bonus Boss that is designed particularly difficult to defeat.

I may be missing it—I am tired at the moment, I fear—but the page for True Final Boss doesn't seem to require that such a boss not be available on a first playthrough.

(If anything, it implies that "True Final Bosses" may in some cases be available on first playthroughs.)

Based on what I see there, a "True Final Boss" is simply a boss that is hidden, replaces or comes after the usual final boss, and is unlocked via certain requirements being met. That seems to match your description of the Undertale boss in question, so I—granted that I'm not familiar with the example myself—would think that it is indeed a "True Final Boss" for that route.

I would say that they're simply OptionalBosses, and don't fit into the sub-tropes: They're not defined by their encounters being skippable via player-choices, and they're not superfluous to the plot. They're just optional by virtue of being route-dependant.

Perhaps we could spin off a "Route Boss" trope...

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Nov 30th 2020 at 1:28:42 PM

Perhaps my understanding of True Final Boss is a bit flawed. In the example I gave, you don't have to exactly seek out the boss I gave. For context, the boss in question, in every route, waits for you in a corridor right before Asgore, but doesn't fight you. In the Genocide route, he decides to fight you, and for this one he acts as the Final Boss. So you WILL run into this guy no matter what you do, but whether you fight him or not depends on the route you took.

As for True Final Boss, I believe I mentioned Persona 4 earlier? Literally everything is telling you "game over, seriously, go home there's nothing left to do here", and only excessive searching - or a guide - leads you to the True Final Boss and the Golden Ending.

Skippable Boss... I don't quite understand your argument there. Technically every optional boss can be avoided. The point of the Skippable Boss is that you WILL run into it, and unless you make specific choices, you have to fight it.

Route Boss is an interesting concept - I have a few examples in mind. You have to fight this or the other boss, right?

Or no, it's more than that. Yeah, this can become its own trope, I think...

Edited by Lermis on Nov 30th 2020 at 2:08:37 PM