Removal of Suicide Prevention Warnings?

For a long time, various pages related to suicide or self-harm behaviour had short warnings on them that essentially told the reader that if they were suicidal, they were not alone, to reconsider, and to seek help. Some of these also linked to the list of suicide hotline numbers we keep on the site. These seem to have vanished at some point - I only noticed today, so it can't have been too long ago. Why and when was this done? I think this was a horrible decision.

It was done a few months ago, and it's because we aren't qualified to offer that sort of assistance

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The removal was discussed and enacted here.

Long story short, we aren't therapists. While those statements might be helpful, they also give the site a false image of responsibility for tropers' mental health, or health in general.

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But that isn't the point of those messages. They aren't giving explicit advice or anything they're directing people to those who can. That's the point. Giving someone a suicide hotline number or similar is an admission that you yourself cannot deal with their issues. It's not like they laid out psychiatric advice for people. It was just supposed to point people in the direction of help, not give help.

We are a wiki, not a self-help guide. People looking for assistance can go somewhere else.

It sounds harsh, but that's just the way it is.

Also, I think people mentioned concerns that the prevention warnings might actually put the idea in people's heads- that they might not've been thinking of it before. Also, they distract from the actual tropes.

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Yeah, I'm not a fan of warnings because of how they drastically pull the attention to real-life matters on a site about fiction.

Content Warning: My posts may involve my actions dealing with R-rated or Not Safe for Work content. Same for my edit history.

A brief warning doesn't detract from the wiki nature of the site. A documentary that has a 'don't try this at home' disclaimer isn't not a documentary because it has that there. We already have real-life examples of many tropes, which is a waaaaay more egregious diversion from the 'fictional trope catalogue' paradigm than brief messages. And frankly, I somehow don't think a message encouraging people to seek help would be more triggering than a page full of descriptions of suicides??

Serious question though, if you're legitimately triggered or given suicidal thoughts by reading about suicide, why would you be on the page about characters killing themselves? And if you're not, why would you need the warning?

I promise I'm not trying to be difficult. I understand your POV here but if you'd read the thread I'd linked you'd see the entire discussion and our realization about why these things aren't a good idea.

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Tropes are ultimately about cataloguing things in fiction, we sometimes point to reality for where it originates but our job is about discussing fiction, not to provide self-help resources. There have been a few incidences with people thinking the site and forums are places to find help with their issues. Imagine how absurd it would be to communicate with a real person in trope-talk over something like that "Your Rape as Backstory is giving you a Freudian Excuse..."

At best, many of those tropes do get redirected towards a Useful Notes page on the broader topic, which can provide better assistance in a more refined environment.

The last thing we need on this wiki is coddling readers and telling them they’re special. It detracts from the informational value and pop-culture-wiseness of the site.

I myself have had serious mental problems in the past. Many people who are suicidal, myself included in the past, search up information related to suicide, read about it in depth, or consume media related to it. I also know that when I had mental issues that I was scared and confused by, I researched some of them on TV Tropes to get a grasp on it and to try and come to terms with it via media representing these thoughts and feelings. I can imagine people might feel the same way as I do. All I'd like is a short disclaimer linking people to the useful notes page on suicide, which has suicide hotline numbers and comprehensive information on it. Nothing disruptive. People come onto these forums to discuss all kinds of things, including stuff that isn't super trope-based. It's the communal duty to at least try to redirect these people to some help, in my opinion. People are special. If TV Tropes makes people feel better about themselves, why is that bad? Nobody's being coddled. I've read the thread, and I disagree with the conclusion. If I wanted to get them back, how would I go about that?

A link to the Useful Notes page wouldn't be too bad.

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The 'PS As' before were literally just bold text with a link to Useful Notes/Suicide and a message imploring the reader to seek help if they feel that way. I don't see the issue. If someone *is* reading up about suicide in the way I described, giving the opportunity to redirect their wiki walk to a page full of help for them and providing an encouraging message can't hurt. It's similar to how Google automatically brings up help-pages for any searches related to suicide.

I wasn't part of this discussion originally, but yeah the arguments were apparently acting like the messages were more than just pointing people to our Useful Notes page. I honestly thought the messages were more along the lines of "If you're thinking of hurting yourself, call [this number]" or "Please don't hurt yourself." Like, people have been talking about these messages as though they might put the thought of suicide in people's heads — or as though these messages are PSAs about how you shouldn't try to hurt yourself — but it's starting to sound like these messages were literally just pointing out our Useful Notes page on the subject.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty

I'm not really convinced that putting a suicide prevention warning on every page that deals with the topic of suicide would be all that necessary. It's more presumptuous than prescient to assume that a person who looks at a suicide trope is necessarily more likely to be suicidal than a person who doesn't look at them, and the idea that breaching the topic of suicide is enough to trigger someone into actually attempting it it doesn't have a lot of basis in reality.

Even so, I can't say I've been all that impressed with most of the blanket arguments against having a short, unobtrusive message like "hey, if you need someone to talk to, here's the Helpline". Simply pointing out that help is available isn't the same thing as giving medical advice, nor is it a tacit admission that we're somehow responsible for the mental health of readers. It's not any different from suggesting a person who's can't stop vomiting should go see a doctor; it's just common sense.

And the suggestion that offering help to someone who might need it is somehow "coddling" readers or turning TV Tropes into a self-help site is something I'm not even going to dignify with a response. I mean, fucking really?

Edited by HeavyMetalHermitCrab on Sep 12th 2020 at 11:55:16 AM

They weren't. They were usually headers at the top of the page, deliberately drawing attention to the message.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

All of this concern misses the point. We are about fiction, or at least creative media. There is no reason why anyone should be looking for mental health advice on TV Tropes any more than you'd expect to find it on the Star Wars wikia, or an NGE fansite.

When you search for "suicide help" or "depression counseling", we should not be your resource. We don't want to be your resource. If it turns out that people are using this community to get counseling, we will quash that. It's specifically against our rules.

We cannot and will not be responsible, even by implication, for anyone's mental or physical health. Putting disclaimers and PSAs on our articles implicitly creates that responsibility.

If you are suffering or in crisis, you shouldn't be using TV Tropes. You should be seeking mental health resources.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 12th 2020 at 4:01:21 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Then should we keep having UsefulNotes.Suicide, at least in its current state?

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Sep 12th 2020 at 5:00:18 AM

I feel like that one article is the limit. We should not put warnings on others. It's at least reasonable given that Useful Notes articles are specifically about real-life things.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 12th 2020 at 5:04:58 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"